Bring Back G (H) Production

As passionate as I am about making sure the way G prod was so unfairly eliminated isn't forgotten or repeated the Gprod ship has sailed. IMHO if we had another production class it would need to be faster than EP (or a slower than H might survive for awhile)

Most of the G prod cars are equitably in H or F and have been for some time I know engines are expensive but engine changes alone put all the VWs in a happy place and the Spridgets in a choice of places Those North and South going Zaks who have not already converted and who are willing and able to run a serious Gprod season just aren't numerous enough. Think about it seriously. Other than using up old parts you already have, why would you run a 1098 Spridget in G when you could run it in H? A full prep VW in G when the LP version is competitive in H?

Yes I understand it is hard to be treated like Gprod was. I took a few years off, initially because I was mad, later for other reasons but then made the changes and jumped back in to find the water is just fine.
 
Just off the top of my head, Please add or correct as needed

Albin, Chris Golf -----Converted to HP
Aldred, Andrew Spitfire -----Retired
Aldred, Dwight Spitfire -----Retired
Allen, Kevin Spitfire -----Parted out car
Bailey, Duanne Spitfire -----
Blust, Jamey Spitfire -----Coverted to HP
Bouquillon, Ken 510 -----Parked
Boylan, Terry Civic -----Converted to HP
Brannon, Barry 210 -----
Briggin, Bill GTi -----
Coffin, Mark Scirocco ------Converting to GTL
Church, Keith Corolla ------Parked car, Vurrently running HP
Culbertson, Brian Gti ------Sold car, car currently running HP
Deathrage, Andy Swift ------Parked
Dennis, Mark/Kevin 510 ------Parked, engines converted to FP
Downey, Brian 510 ------Sold 510, currently running GTL
Estrada, Steve 510 ------Parked
Feineigle, Lee Roadster ------Converted to FP
Gauper, Greg Civic ------Converted to HP
Gallagher, Larry 510 ------Parked
Griffen, Jay CRX ------
Goodale, John Swift -----Running GTL
Hammer, David Rabitt -----Converted to HP
Heczko, Eric 510 -----
Hunter, Bill CRX -----
Hylton, Peter Golf -----
Kelly, Bob Scirocco -----
Lavine, Roger Scirocco -----
Lentz, Bobby 510 -----Sold car, currently running GTL
Marlowe, Jay Corolla -----Parked
Mathis, Chuck Rabbit -----Parked, built FP
Maupins, Robert MGB -----
Mcallister, Mark Spitfire -----Parked, Running Spec Miata
Macdonald, John Spitfire -----
Mcoll, Karl 510 -----Parted out car, currently running EP
Morrison, Tom Spitfire -----Sold car to Blust, currently running HP Sprite/MGB
Miller, Mathew 510 -----Parked
Nagle, Steve Scirocco -----
Patterson, Dean Chevette -----
Prather, Kent MGA -----Converted MGA to vintage, currently running GTL
Rogers, Peter Sprite -----
Sargis, Steve Spitfire -----Converted to HP
Snow, John X19 -----Converted to HP
Stanford, John Spitfire -----
Stoltze, Paul X19 -----
Verity, Neil MGB -----Converted to HP
Weber, Mark Sprite -----Converted to HP/FP
Wessel, Bill Roadster -----Converted to FP
Winter, Jeff 510 -----Parked, running GT3
Wittman, Gary Sprite -----Converted to HP
Wood, Curtis Alfa -----Coverted to HP/FP
 
Additional for your info sheet Kevin

Curtis Wood converted And ran H this year. Building F engine

Tom Morrison sold Spit and bought 2 HProd cars (Spridget and MGB). Only ran twice this year
Toms Old Spit at runoffs with Blust in HP this year

Verity to H

Chuck Leighton passed away

Drew Aldred and his Dad both converted to H before retiring

Prather to Vintage/GTL
 
Kevin, that is a lot for just off the head memory. I can add a little information. You can add John Snow. His son blew the engine in driver school and it is parked now. John has pretty much retired from actually racing but acts as Chief Steward at many races. Neil Verity has raced in HP many times.
 
Just out of curiosity, I'd like to see a similar list made of EP racers across the country in 2000, and the current status of those cars & drivers today. Peoples lives, hobbies, families, financial situations, health, priorities, etc change, and so I bet if you looked at a list like that of a still existing class, you'd see a pretty similar attrition rate.


Just from my own experience of running ITA since 2004, the landscape of that class has constantly been changing. Lots of cars and drivers have come and gone. There's been five different winners out of seven ARRC's during that time, and of those five, only two even still own their cars (me being one), and none are still running full time in the class. Like I said, lives change.
 
Technically, I built an FP engine and raced FP for a few years before finally giving up. I still have my GP cylinder head and could pop it on my FP short block and be back. Although if GP came back, i wouldn't mind being able to run the big valve head. :lol:

My goal for next year is to make the transition to GTLite with the Scirocco, but doing it in such a way to be able to convert back to a legal prod car if necessary.

When I was looking at creating GP for the SARRC series earlier in the year, I was tweaking the specs to bring in the slower FP cars that nobody wants to race (1.6 CRXs, 1.8 VWs for example), and uncorking the HP cars that are running at the front (Moser's CRX for example...how fast would it go if it weight 1900 lbs? and the 1147 Spit w/ all the rewards weight removed from years past), and adding to them to the 2008 PCS specs for GP.

I think the potential is there, and it certainly would ease the angst in the H-prod crowd.

MC
 
Ron Bartell":6uk0na83 said:
This post is difficult for me because it sounds like sour grapes, but I think it is time to make a push to bring back G Production.
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Ron,

Your reasoning is sound so it is not sour grapes and the response here backs that up. I believe Production can support 4 classes, 4 competitive Productions classes would be a beautiful thing to see. As suggested I have voiced my support to reinstate G-Prod - Letter # 6497.

Since the devil is often in the details I have at least 1 question. Where would the G / H break off point be? When I last ran in ‘94 some cars had been placed in H-Prod that I was not happy about. Especially since the PBS head was denied then. Now it is allowed and even though I have yet to run it (should be in 2012) I now wouldn’t have an issue with going back to where things were then. The point being, if it would help with the required numbers in H-Prod and not hurt G-Prod I would be OK with the cars that were added then (Dat 1200 is one I recall) I, and probably others with 850s, would be good with that.

I think an overall redistribution, as Mark Coffin somewhat suggested, could be in order given that some newer cars have been added since G went away.

Thank you,
L
 
Ron Bartell":1weg803q said:
Clearly the new G would cannibalize H, but if some of the cars that were parked come out and play there would be a net increase in runoffs participation, which is a good thing. We would need a commitment from a number of G cars in order for this to make sense.
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Regarding the potential number of H cars if G is reinstated. As the almost lone Fiat 850 voice here, AFAIK, I will throw in a few bits of info. There were very roughly 20 (including my 2) 850s around the country when I last made any effort to “count” them, just before I decided to return to SCCA a few years ago. The list spans raced 850s from the 70s through now. Some may have gone vintage or autoX, at least 1 was scrapped. For a more realistic number I would need some help/input here, maybe you guys know some of the drivers. I could post a list of owner/drivers and some other info (last known: location, color, number, old website pics) to try to find out if the cars still exist and the owners want to race them. The ones that were racing SCCA when I left (’94) felt “disenfranchised” as someone here put it. Maybe some could come back if they, or the car, are around and know what is going on. Let me know if you want me to post the list as it is now.

Thank you,
L
 
Alright, that's a half dozen posted comments and 1 confirmed request supporting the reinstatement of GP (#6497). Thanks Larry.

We should get the GP rules reinstated just like they were in 2008 for now. That lets those who wish to follow the path they chose in HP or FP continue without penalty or loss.

How about the rest of you with comments, got a letter # yet? Believe me there is power in numbers when it comes to dealing with the CRB and BOD.

Thanks,
Keith
 
Just my 2 cents, I dont think this would be a good idea for either class G or H. I dont think there would be enough cars that would magically come back out to play to make either class viable. I think it could back fire and kill off both classes.

In a perfect world, if you had a gurantee that every garaged G prod car would come back and every garaged H prod car would come back it would work, but I dont think that is possible in today's economy and culture of SCCA. I was just as pissed when they eliminated Gprod where my car was at, but if I remember correctly HP was struggling at the time too.

To me it makes more sense in making Hp stronger, I dont know exactly how but figure out how to make the garaged cars competitive in the current class they are in H or F. If that means moving some FP cars down to HP and vice verso so be it, I do not get a sense from the Club that they are willing to add to many classes right now with the numbers that are showing up at the track.

A last note, this is one of the reasons I am deciding to get out and sell my car. I have worked very hard the past couple years to make my car competitive in HP getting to within a second of the fast HP guys at Mid Ohio, If all of a sudden I get moved back to GP now I am 3 seconds slower than the fast guys at Mid Ohio, why should I than go back to square one all over again when i just did that when GP was gone. the constant changing or shifting of the rules is why I am getting frustrated and looking to get out.
 
bdw73":3iunh3oz said:
A last note, this is one of the reasons I am deciding to get out and sell my car. I have worked very hard the past couple years to make my car competitive in HP getting to within a second of the fast HP guys at Mid Ohio, If all of a sudden I get moved back to GP now I am 3 seconds slower than the fast guys at Mid Ohio, why should I than go back to square one all over again when i just did that when GP was gone. the constant changing or shifting of the rules is why I am getting frustrated and looking to get out.
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This is why I ask about the details of reinstating G. What cars would go where, would weights be returned to X-year levels, will there be a redistribution, etc?

IMHO, it is a bit early in the process to decide to eliminate the possibility of reinstating G. I am in favor at this point because overall I believe it is the right thing to do.

L
 
Barry,
To be clear NO ONE IS ASKING FOR A CHANGE TO CURRENT HP RULES in this discussion. Those in HP and FP who choose to stay there will not be affected by this request. This will simply add cars, no one should stop racing as a result of this request. If you decide to quit racing it wont be because of this request.

Many race sanctioning organizations have multiple classes for the same car. Been to a go-kart race lately? With a weight or power change these guys race 3 or 4 classes each event. Think what that does for revenues (entry fees) without adding any additional hard cost. The SCCA has had lots of competitive cars eligible for more than one class and numerous multi-class national champions in the same year (even in prod classes).

This is an effort to restore rules stability as it existed for decades before 2009. Reinstating G does not destabilize F or H as those cars will still be as viable as they are now. It will likely put an end to much of the crying about HP overdogs and FP weaklings so some whinners may oppose this as it eliminates their excuse for being inactive.

Lets stay focused on making prod an attractive place for new and old competitors to play.

Thanks,
Keith
 
Keith,

I'm in favor of getting GP back, but go back to Ron's original post. If all of the former GP cars stay in HP it doesn't do anything to encourage the HP cars that are sitting out to come back and play.
 
I came a little late to the prod party - after GP was already gone - what was the break point between HP and GP cars back in the day?
 
What Keith said. The idea here would be to simply add the 2008 GP Specs back into the PCS. How much can that cost? The guys who have moved on to FP or HP can continue, nothing lost for them.

This just gives a place for a) the old GP cars to come back. b) folks who might be interested in building a new car for GP (e.g. a 1.8 VW Scirocco or Golf, a 1.6 CRX Si, or a 1900 lb Moser CRX). there is an option c) a place for an 1147cc Spit, or a 1.6 VW Scirocco or Rabbit which was much more competitive in full prep GP trim than it is in limited prep HP trim (trust me on this one).

Getting back to Ron's original post/purpose: if GP was to come back, then there would bee a place for slower FP cars and MAYBE, just MAYBE a place to put those HP overdogs and bring some happiness to HP land.

But I can't see how it would hurt to reinstate GP as it was in 2008 and see what happens. I certainly would provide a better continuum of classes and performance potential for classification purposes. To Barry Wills comment, it's almost impossible to slow down an FP car to HP speeds w/o ridiculous amounts of weight and/or implementing some sort of drastic intake restriction (plates, SIR, etc). But it is more feasible to slow one down just enough to GP speed potential.

Mark
 
Jason@SportsCar":18wthdb8 said:
I came a little late to the prod party - after GP was already gone - what was the break point between HP and GP cars back in the day?
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You young whippersnapper!! Back in the olden days (all the way back to 2008...).

For example, the GP lap record at Road America is a 2:39 (or maybe a high 2:38) by Superman himself. At the same time, I believe the HP track record was around 2:44 or 2:45 before the limited prep cars started showing up in HP. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

MC
 
Mark Coffin":2v4gi851 said:
You young whippersnapper!! Back in the olden days (all the way back to 2008...).

For example, the GP lap record at Road America is a 2:39 (or maybe a high 2:38) by Superman himself. At the same time, I believe the HP track record was around 2:44 or 2:45 before the limited prep cars started showing up in HP. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

MC
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I spent the last 18 years on DOT race rubber. :mrgreen:

I was not actually looking for lap times... Was it displacement, prep level, what made a GP car a GP car VS an HP car?
 
Jason,

Same limited prep and full prep rules as we have now. Engine displacement between HP and FP. Full prep 1.6 VW was in GP, Limited prep 1.6 VW was in HP. LImited prep 1.8 VW was in GP, full prep 1.8 VW was in FP.When GP ended some cars went up into FP and some came down into HP.
 
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