Bring Back G (H) Production

Letter # 6507

Please reinstate GP as requested in Letter # 6488. I have a MG Midget sitting in a shed that, with minor mods, would be a track ready GP car. Reinstating GP would not harm the other Prod classes but would allow more participation by those of us who have cars but no competitive class. Thank you for your consideration.

Joseph Downer
 
If we want to slow down the current H class and bring back a G class to make cars fit better and have more options. That raises the question of having enough slower/smaller H cars, if the 850's and 948's are basically all gone, then are there some newer cars that can start to be added to the H class. At some point the new Fiat 500 might fit into H class, but that might be a few years down the road, what else can fill in the H class..... The yaris might be a good fit, but not many of those being built, not sure why. Seems very few newer cars are being built, maybe due to cost, the donor car cost is still kind of high for some and after market support to buid into a race car isn't there for some current small cars.

Would be great to have 4 classes, but can we fill the H class with proper small bore cars, or are those days basically over, or maybe need to wait a few years?? Are there enough limited prep options to fill H class??
 
I got one of those maxed out 948's , 1521# bugeyes, and I think it is/could be very competive on the tracks around here, so what do I do, car sitting on stands, throw away the full prep engine and start over ? not in my economy !!!!
If G came back, the small bore guys will love it, But then again if I was to redevelop a 1275, I would go full prep 1275, drop the weight of the car, add a wing and be the only GTL bugeye in the country, I wonder how that would work :think: :think:
 
Curtis":2gnv9eln said:
I know you are well intended and only want the best for produciton racing, but I think you need to think this through, and then maybe through again.
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Curtis, and anyone not in favor of this,

Please refer back to my post on the bottom of page 5.

Interested in hearing your response on those questions.

Thank you,
L
 
Larry. Your questions were good but based on a mistaken reality. These cars are for the most part competitively classed already. Anybody serious about racing them is already racing them.

The idea that Joseph will drag his Midget out of the shed and prepare it for Gprod where it will be exactly the same rule spec and less competitive than it currently already is in HProd is ridiculous. He would have done it several years ago if it was going to happen.

What you have here are two groups that were treated badly and are rightfully upset about it. 1st the GP racers who had their class stolen and then the very small bore HP racers who were unfairly left behind and forced to build different engines to remain competitive in a faster HProd

I am sympathetic to all. But again and then I am done with this. Why tear down a strong healthy Production class and alienate current racers? If it was wrong when it was done before it's just as wrong now.
 
Curtis,

I guess the fact that my VW Scirocco 1.6 is such a great car for F-Production explains why I was inundated with offers when I put my car up for sale earlier this year. 8) And why there were so many of them on the grid at the Runoffs....

When the "Superman" of VWs can't get within 5 seconds of the "Superman" of F-Prod, I think that speaks volumes on how "competitively" classed the VW is. Interestingly though, Chuck's times are exactly where the front runners of G-Production would be....

Oh, and look at the specs for the VW Rabbit/Scirocco 1.5 in FP and tell me with a straight face that it is a fair classification AND anybody in their right mind would try to build one. :hand: That car should have gone to HP with a couple hundred lbs of ballast added...and I'd bet you'd have seen a hell of a Runoffs HP race with Mr. Mathis and the Orange Rabbit right at the front battling Superman and the MoserCRX.

MC
 
Ron Bartell":3ituf46p said:
I would propose the following:
1) Reinstate G Production as a National class starting 1/1/2012 based on the 2008 GCR/PCS
2) Allow G cars to run in either H or G for the 2012 year with only one National championship in H for 2012
3) As of 2013 the G cars can only run in G, but there will be both an H and a G National Championship - Probably run together at RA
4) Monitor participation, and if the numbers in H fall below the 2.5 requirement (assuming that it is reinstated), combine H into G with a performance advantage given to the H cars to make them competitive. The 948 Spridget will be left behind at that point as there is nothing that can be done to speed it up.
Click to expand...

Well this is where you lost my support... GP did not have enough numbers to support itself, thus it got combined with FP/HP. So even if every car that retired/moved comes back, unless a bunch of new cars are built for both G/H, we are at step 4 in your plan within a few years. This basically puts us exactly where we are now, except the class is a few seconds quicker, and it cost everyone that currently has a car a lot more money to get up to the $peed (GP speed) you want the class to run. Change for the sake of change, no thanks.

If GP can come back on its own and make it great, but don't bring it back at the cost of the current class. Two wrongs wont make it right.
 
Curtis,
Don't know where you have been racing lately but the overwhelming majority of re-classed G cars are not competitive and most are parked. Wessel's Datsun is a 4 time national champion car that struggles for a top 10 finish at the runoffs despite having the biggest gains in power of the former GP cars. None of the former GP 510, VW, Fiat, Toyota, early Honda, or MGA cars presently race competitively in F. Mathis hopes to do better next year but helped Albin in H this year. I don't remember seeing a Honda like Moser's H car in GP in 07 or 08. The 948 Sprites have had a nice 30+ year run that some fear is over but they do very well with the 1275 in H. There are lots of small bore tin tops (VW, FIESTA, YARIS etc) that can do well in HP when competing with traditional HP cars.
Really don't see H or F going away because of the revival of G. As it says on the cereal box "some settling may occur" but the net effect will be more prod cars racing and more membership and entry fee dollars coming into the club.
Regards,
Keith
 
I would just say that change almost always pisses more poeple off than not. Everytime we have a big class change more poeple leave the club. It is never the other way around. Just look at the GTL debacle. Do yourself a favor and find a place in the club where your car is currently classed and have at it. Give yourself a reason to stay and race and not chase away 10 others so you can have your way.
Chris
 
Jason wrote:

"If GP can come back on its own and make it great, but don't bring it back at the cost of the current class. Two wrongs wont make it right."

The GP class was completely eliminated! GP is not a class at any level. The class does not exist! No cars are classed as "GP" cars. GP racers were not given the option; they had to change to HP or FP, or drop out.

There's no way they can "come back on their own". No one can enter an SCCA race in a GP car!

The GP cars entering HP without correct adjustment parked or drove off a lot of formerly competitive 948 Spridgets (and other small bore marques); Salisbury, Fellers, Collishaw come to mind. Mine was parked before the consolidation due to daughter's college expenses, but there's no way I'd attempt to bring it out again. Where's the market for 12 948 short blocks?

Vintage or Midwest Counsel are the only options, but those aren't really "Run-Off" quality racing.

I doubt GP will ever come back, no matter how much support the idea has.

RJS
 
I was just looking at the regional car counts and GP is listed as a regional class but had zero entries so far this year....
 
Keith Church":1ugg1215 said:
Ron,
Cant agree with item 2) "Allow G cars to run in either H or G for the 2012 year with only one National championship in H for 2012". This is the exact same device the former BOD used to kill GP.
Keith Church
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Keith - You are correct that dropping the Runoffs race is what killed G Production. The reason that I suggested that there would not be a runoffs in G for the first year is because the proposal allows the current G cars that are in H to continue racing in H for another year. If they have a choice they will continue on in H, I believe, and therefore there will not be enough entrants to make a good race at the Runoffs. My actual letter (#6510) had this part changed to state that if there is enough participation to warrant it, then there could be a Runoffs race in G in 2012 or whatever the first year that G is reinstated.

There is no question that this proposal will not be embraced by everyone, certainly not by those that are currently enjoying the front end of the H class, but I know that there are plenty of people that feel that G got screwed and have stopped racing because of it. If it brings them out to play again, then the club will see more entries. If it doesn't pan out the classes can be recombined, but this time H would be combined into G which should be the stronger class, and therefore H will get a performance break in order to be able to run with the faster G cars. The 948 will probably drop off the competitive map at that point, but they can be converted to the 1275 like the rest of the Spridgets have.
 
Although I too have posted similar things, I'm one who is worried that we could kill a strongish class (HP) by trying to bring back GP.

In my mind, eliminating GP - which I totally agree should not have happened like it did - has led to two separate problems:

The GP cars moved to FP are mostly uncompetitive. And the GP cars that have moved to H are dominating the class at the Runoffs. Both things are certainly generally true.

Re the latter only - I think Tom Feller hit the nail on the head -Road America is an "outlier" ie statistically abnormal track due to high speeds and long straights. In this situation, GP cars ballasted to equal the power/weight ratios of HP cars will naturally run away from the HP cars as it is power/drag not power/weight that governs top speed.

My strong feeling is that the 1.6VW and the 1275 Spridgets - and very likely any remaining topnotch 948 Sprites - are fully competitive with the ex GP cars on a "medium" track, say a Summit Point for instance. I'd think that the LP Spitfires are also at least this good based on memories from Mid-Ohio.

That leads me to think that the "best" solution for the new HP is a championship race somewhere other than Road America.

This could take the form of working for a Runoffs move, or perhaps a short-term unofficial solution such as running a "peoples HP grand prix" at the Prodfest or ??
 
One guy does make a difference – when both GTL and GP had OK numbers there were a couple of people who ran a dozen or more Nationals – Chuck Leighton passed on and Zekert pulled way back and the numbers subsequently declined – GP never had the support of the influential GP drivers so when it declined there was no real forceful lobby – lobbyist carry a lot of weight especially if there is large resource behind them – logical arguments don’t carry much weight – perceived benefit to the organization and ideas carried forth by board members will always prevail – people will listen but getting their attention is the problem – if one is serious about bringing back GP then one has to work into the mind of a key board member the benefit – what is the benefit ?? – for the moment none are perceived – life has gone on – Prather is the GTL national champ where he found a home as many others have done – my two GP cars are parked and most likely will never be on a track again – one has a log book going back to the 1970s – its last race was as a HP ….. for the moment bringing back GP is fantasy – how it becomes reality a stretch …..
 
I'm with you Ron. The fact that this post is 8 pages long since Tuesday shows there is a lot of interest. I have 2 limited prep HP cars and 2 of the best 948 engines in the country sitting in my barn and they aren't going anywhere under the current rules. I know there are a lot of GP cars out there doing the same thing. I also wonder if the new B spec cars could fit into the old HP.
 
Ron Bartell":3u660by6 said:
Keith - You are correct that dropping the Runoffs race is what killed G Production. The reason that I suggested that there would not be a runoffs in G for the first year is because the proposal allows the current G cars that are in H to continue racing in H for another year. If they have a choice they will continue on in H, I believe, and therefore there will not be enough entrants to make a good race at the Runoffs. My actual letter (#6510) had this part changed to state that if there is enough participation to warrant it, then there could be a Runoffs race in G in 2012 or whatever the first year that G is reinstated.

There is no question that this proposal will not be embraced by everyone, certainly not by those that are currently enjoying the front end of the H class, but I know that there are plenty of people that feel that G got screwed and have stopped racing because of it. If it brings them out to play again, then the club will see more entries. If it doesn't pan out the classes can be recombined, but this time H would be combined into G which should be the stronger class, and therefore H will get a performance break in order to be able to run with
the faster G cars. The 948 will probably drop off the competitive map at that point, but they can be converted to the 1275 like the rest of the Spridgets have.
Click to expand...

Oh. I get it now. You would just take racers currently active in a healthy, stable class and mandatorily move them to a new class and possibly new spec against their will. That
worked so well when it was done to GProd and everybody was so happy about it I'm surprised we havn't tried it again before now!

And hey, as an added bonus, even if GP isn't revived, just the existence of this thread will insure nobody spends any time or money getting an old G car ready for H or F next year! Heck somebody might even just run IT another year or two longer till the new spec for their car shakes out.

On a serious note. I knew the "G" thing would happen to us again someday and that's why I was so vocal about making sure it was not forgotten. I just didn't imagine it would come from the very same racers that thought it so wrong when it was done to them.
 
Curtis":230ts8gw said:
On a serious note. I knew the "G" thing would happen to us again someday and that's why I was so vocal about making sure it was not forgotten. I just didn't imagine it would come from the very same racers that thought it so wrong when it was done to them.
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With all due respect Curtis, you are not a credible voice in this discussion. You were so upset about G being done away with that it took you, what, 3 years to figure out how to strap on 150 lbs so you could run H? You see Curtis, adding and subtracting weight within normal limits is not really that difficult. You bolt it in or you take it out. My car has run at four different weights and two different motors in that last 6 years. Big deal. That is all that we are talking about by moving the former G cars back to G - Taking weight out.

Also, you don't seem to be that interested in running the Runoffs with only two starts and a best finish of 14th after qualifying 20th. This discussion, and the people that should be deciding what the classes look like, are the runoffs competitors. You know, the ones that have a lot invested in time and money, and the ones that feel the result of class and venue changes the most. We are the ones that have been hosed a number of times by CRB/BOD missteps, and you can't blame us for trying to affect a change in something that is currently inequitable. Running regionals or mid-pack at the runoffs has a lot more to do with driver ability and a lot less to do with car configuration, car class, and weight.

As I said before, National racing these days is all about the Runoffs. Let's let those that have a real vested interest in this have their chance to get their point across.
 
Curtis,

I think the difference with what Keith is proposing ( and I agree) is to simply reinstate GP as it was. This is the prudent approach, IMHO. Get things started by reinstating the 2007 GP PCS specs. This way no one gets moved out of HP against their will, everyone gets to choose to continue to race which class they want. If old GP cars come back great. If people keep racing in their current classes (FP, HP, GTL, whatever), then great. If people want to build a NEW car for GP, then that's even better.

I don't understand where the resistance is coming from. NO ONE will be forced to race GP if the class is reinstated.

The reinstatement of GP is kind of a no brainer, because it gives the CRB more room to "manuever" for new classifications. And since the 2.5 rule is suspended for a few years, it gives GP time to grow. Give it a combined Runoffs race w/ another class (GTLite would be a good choice given the smaller car count there). Win, win, win.

MC

Edit: I just realized that the GP Specs were gutted in 2008, removing a lot of cars that went to HP. The 2007 Specs would be a better choice, as it has the limited prep GP cars that were moved.
 
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