Another Letter to the CRB on H Production Parity

bfloyd":cjk7pvij said:
Ron, where can we see this letter?

Bryan Floyd
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I don't know really. I guess the CRB has it. Can the letters be viewed after they are submitted? If so I don't know how that is done. It is letter number 16103.
 
Anyone who has followed this forum for a while will know that I've always supported giving a fair shot to the Spridgets, and for that matter all the "originally HP" cars.

But I have to say that the idea of throwing SIRs on a high % of the HP field on short notice for the 2015 racing season in order to help out the Spridgets at Daytona is a really bad idea. I can't think that it would be seriously considered but if it was it would likely (IMO) be the end of HP by slashing participation numbers drastically at least in the short run, in which case there would be no long run.

Thumbs down bigtime on that one. And that's from a guy who is pretty sure (??) that his car wouldn't be considered an overdog deserving of an SIR, but who does want a class to race in with cars to race against.

Al Seim
HP VW Scirocco 1.6
 
It better be way too late for any 2015 rule changes regarding Prod.

SIR have way too many places to cheat and or spend money on. Air box, cams, intake vac signal, crankcase pressures. The cost is way higher than flat plates with the same results.

With the the SIR , Every thing between the front of the car to the end of the exhaust pipe is an engineering point. Intake resonance , air stacking, etc. Anytime that you have a venturi there will be a sweet spot and potential for a really high flow point under certain conditions.
The flat plate does not respond with much variance .
The Kids kart had a FLat plate , I proposed to the dyno guy about breathing the engine through the valve guides. Wham- 50 rpm.
I am not opposed to testing flat plates for future reference .. SIR , not at all. Still many places to cheat and develope but greatly reduced VS the SIR..
 
Protech Racing":921gi9fn said:
It better be way too late for any 2015 rule changes regarding Prod.

SIR have way too many places to cheat and or spend money on. Air box, cams, intake vac signal, crankcase pressures. The cost is way higher than flat plates with the same results.

With the the SIR , Every thing between the front of the car to the end of the exhaust pipe is an engineering point. Intake resonance , air stacking, etc. Anytime that you have a venturi there will be a sweet spot and potential for a really high flow point under certain conditions.
The flat plate does not respond with much variance .
The Kids kart had a FLat plate , I proposed to the dyno guy about breathing the engine through the valve guides. Wham- 50 rpm.
I am not opposed to testing flat plates for future reference .. SIR , not at all. Still many places to cheat and develope but greatly reduced VS the SIR..
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BULLSHIT! ;)
 
Mike, I agree with Joe. With an SIR, and with limited prep head rules, stock valve diameters, limited VALVE lift, no porting of the head, the only "engineering" to be done is with the cam. There is no limit on duration, so that is the one thing that you can "engineer" is getting the most amount of air/fuel into the head.
 
Regardless of any disagreement as to the relative merits of SIR vs plates, I'd hope that we can all agree that it's way too late to implement such a relatively major change in HP for the 2015 season....!!!!

Adding either is a relatively large change to Prod and needs to be VERY carefully thought out. No matter how effective an equalizer it is it will scare some people off and cause others to take a breather.

Al Seim
 
Al Seim":1my6zkmt said:
Regardless of any disagreement as to the relative merits of SIR vs plates, I'd hope that we can all agree that it's way too late to implement such a relatively major change in HP for the 2015 season....!!!!

Adding either is a relatively large change to Prod and needs to be VERY carefully thought out. No matter how effective an equalizer it is it will scare some people off and cause others to take a breather.

Al Seim
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IMO a plate or sir would be a philosophy change, and would require a lot of work up front. I am sure the GTL guys could shed some light, but I would guess each whack at a different size is at least $1000 by the time you factor in fab work and dyno time - and I doubt anyone has got it right on the first try.
 
Jason@SportsCar":afohzl52 said:
Al Seim":afohzl52 said:
Regardless of any disagreement as to the relative merits of SIR vs plates, I'd hope that we can all agree that it's way too late to implement such a relatively major change in HP for the 2015 season....!!!!

Adding either is a relatively large change to Prod and needs to be VERY carefully thought out. No matter how effective an equalizer it is it will scare some people off and cause others to take a breather.

Al Seim
Click to expand...

IMO a plate or sir would be a philosophy change, and would require a lot of work up front. I am sure the GTL guys could shed some light, but I would guess each whack at a different size is at least $1000 by the time you factor in fab work and dyno time - and I doubt anyone has got it right on the first try.
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Guys I agree it would be kinda crappy to have this change come now. The SIR is not big scary deal its being made out to be. We have enough shared data now that I can honestly that the claims of cheating it that have been made here are wrong. Leaking valve guides and cross drilling throttle shafts are just ways to scare people away.. It is the cheapest way to balance a class made up of such different engines. maybe not todays answer but it could be a good option for your future.
 
WHY the SIR? Prod has used stock valve sizes, unlike GT and carb venturis - unlike unlimited carb. Specify the carb venturis - my 40 DCNF is quite adjustable. FI throttle bodies - stock only. Beyond that, lead trophies.

Quit screwing with the most expensive/technically elegant solution.
 
Why the SIR? Because it works well in GTL. Those guys have had to try to deal with two different classes being combined into one, and the SIR works. We have basically the same thing in H with the G cars being combined, and the performance differential between a modern 4-valve, 1.5 and 1.6 liter, overhead cam, crossflow, 8-port head compared to a Siamese port 1.3 liter tractor motor can not be adjusted by weight. As pointed out in the beginning of this thread, weight does not adjust for top speed, so something needs to be done to deal with horsepower. Either you slow the fast cars down or speed up the slow ones. If you look at the speeds of the front-running F cars which have unlimited compression and valve lift, and plenty of carburation, they are only 2 to 3 mph faster than the front-running H cars, and these cars are 4 to 5 mph faster than the rest of the field. So speeding up the slow H cars will not get there. Besides, the front-running cars are complaining about being too heavy. An SIR will allow some of the weight to come off, making tire management easier - a win-win.

As for timing, I don't care when they do it. If they want some Spridgets at Daytona they will do it right away. I would suggest that the SIR would only be needed at the Runoffs next year, so those that won't attend or don't want to use one will not be affected. Those that want to be at the front will optimize the SIR in time for the Runoffs. There is no way that the big-motored cars will take next year off. Not when all they have to do is find the gas pedal.

I don't see the big deal with implementing it anyway. Maybe some of the GTL guys can shed some light on just how difficult it is. Of course those affected by it won't want to do it. That is a given. But how hard is it really?
 
Kyle Disque, hopefully will chime in here. Airbox and SIR build and installation is a weekend. I recommend buying the raetech SIR mostly because it is well thought out and easy to install. With the limited prep cars we are talking about it will be very little dyno time to get it right. As I have learned build the best engine possible under the rules Dyno it unrestricted, then add restrictor re-dyno Re-jet and likely advance cam 2 to 4 degrees to lower the power curve in the engine. These basic things will get you very close in one weekend. The main thing is DONT FORGET THE BASICS!
 
I originally thought the SIR was a good way to help equalize cars in any particular class. Unfortunately, it just about killed GTL. I think the main reason was that many people just did not like the idea and just dropped out without giving it a chance or tried it and didn't like what they had to do to make it work.

If I had to do something to slow my car down and had various options, I would elect to reduce valve lift. One way to do that is changing the cam. Typically, cams are not that difficult to R & R and they can be reground or just replaced with a new one. I think cost would be comparable or less than an SIR and nothing new would be added to the engine compartment. That would eliminate having to fab up new components for installation. Dyno time would probably be needed but that is the norm for anyone that is serious about going fast with a new engine anyway.
 
SIRs and restrictors always seem easy to the people not faced with installing one. Its not going to be cheap, and its not going to be easy - and I would have zero faith in the CRB getting the size right out of the box, so add another $375 for the second SIR plus $350 for another dyno session. Its better than a $1000 whack to slow the car down.

In WC we saw Ford and Kia both park cars when the restrictors got so small the electronics could not compensate. The Fords were overheating and the Kia could not stay out of limp mode. While the modern EFI car has many advantages, if you get on the wrong side of the electronics it will punish you.

Faced with building a new car this season I would honestly look at (and have been) going to STL if Prod took to the SIR or plate... While plates are already used in Super Touring, I also get to keep my ABS brakes, run less costly tires, and drop a really big motor in the car. Being that I give up my fancy trans the STL build is actually less costly, and there are always a ton of cars to run with.

How long does Prod last if no new cars come in?

I really enjoy Prod. I like the cars and the community. I really like the stability in the rules set. I assume some of those things will change with the "Majors Class Accord", so I honestly wont be surprised if we don't see new Prod cars being built in the coming years. :cry:
 
So, Jason, sounds like you have already made up your mind to go to stl. Too bad, but I understand. No one wants to have to change what they have been running for years just because some rule changes have been made, or they let in new cars that weren't necessarily properly matched, but sometimes you have to do it.
 
Jason, curious how a Yaris would fare in STL? Would it be competitive or would you need to do something weird/expensive like a 2.4 liter Camry engine swap? Would it require a plate?

HP and to some extent, FP have the small displacement problem, meaning most modern cars will make too much power for the class. The restrictor is one way to get these cars in. What we really need in order to attract new cars is a class above EP and some changes to the rules to allow more popular mods, such as engine swaps.

If HP were to stay at the same speed it is now, there are very few new cars that could fit, even with a restrictor. Those cars are econoboxes. To think there would be a field full of new, modified econoboxes seems optimistic. Heck, even BSpec is failing and those cars are almost stock. That means these cars need to conform somewhat to the rest of the prod class, meaning older econoboxes and old roadsters.

And really, if you're ready to spend the money developing a new car, you can afford money for an SIR/plate.
 
Ron Bartell":1jr9kgl7 said:
So, Jason, sounds like you have already made up your mind to go to stl. Too bad, but I understand. No one wants to have to change what they have been running for years just because some rule changes have been made, or they let in new cars that weren't necessarily properly matched, but sometimes you have to do it.
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I certainly have not made my mind up, just weighing options, along with pros and con's. Being able to drop a $3000 engine that makes 180hp out if the box, and being able to keep my factory ABS brakes sounds like a lot of fun. But adding 300lbs or so, and having less corner speed due to a less grippy tire is a downer - but the lower cost of the tires almost make up for it.

I like the stability Prod has, ST is a mess and things could change without much notice, all the weights and adders changed last season.

I cant jump up to F or E with an engine change like some of the British cars, so I have to look outside, so its nice to have an option.
 
Tom Feller":32iajg22 said:
Jason, curious how a Yaris would fare in STL? Would it be competitive or would you need to do something weird/expensive like a 2.4 liter Camry engine swap? Would it require a plate?

HP and to some extent, FP have the small displacement problem, meaning most modern cars will make too much power for the class. The restrictor is one way to get these cars in. What we really need in order to attract new cars is a class above EP and some changes to the rules to allow more popular mods, such as engine swaps.

If HP were to stay at the same speed it is now, there are very few new cars that could fit, even with a restrictor. Those cars are econoboxes. To think there would be a field full of new, modified econoboxes seems optimistic. Heck, even BSpec is failing and those cars are almost stock. That means these cars need to conform somewhat to the rest of the prod class, meaning older econoboxes and old roadsters.

And really, if you're ready to spend the money developing a new car, you can afford money for an SIR/plate.
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STL is 2li and under. I have no doubt the 2ZZ from the Celica will make similar power to the front running Acura, and since it is already maxed on compression its a relatively inexpensive build. No plate on it, just loading a few hundred lbs in the car. The swaps have already been done on street cars, and after selling my two custom trans and my two motors I should come out ahead.

If I develop a new HP car I am simply bolting my drive train and suspension into a newer Yaris chassis - only cost is a cage - there is no development.

I think B Spec does not work due to the high cost of entry, and who wants to put a plate on a 100hp car just so the Fiat can keep up.
 
All they have to do at Daytona to equalize the cars is throw in a temporary chicane, same as they did at Road Atlanta for awhile with the back stretch chicane, and at Mid Ohio with the chicane before the keyhole.
 
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