Another Letter to the CRB on H Production Parity

[Jason Stine]

For what it's worth... my letter only asked for weight to be added to the CRX (100 lbs) since the SIR discussion hadn't begun at the time I submitted it. The CRB took it upon themselves to add 70 lbs to the Honda and to the Yaris and VWs and reduce the LBCs 30 lbs. Will it make a difference at Daytona which is wide open for 75% of the lap? Most likely not... But, at the smaller twisty tracks, it may help with getting off the corners better. I can't get any more weight out of the bugeye, so for me personally this is a moot point.

I agree with Ron and still believe the SIR is the long term solution for parity, and not just a lead penalty...

 

[BobC]

Let me throw bigger (intake) valves into the mix. Those of us living with econobox derived motors could benefit.

 

[Ed Funk]

...and, and turbos and nitrous and, and more lead! :twisted:

 

[JasonIsley99]

...and, and turbos and nitrous and, and more lead! :twisted:

A plate, SIR and DOT tires, and it will be that much easier to combine us with ST.

 

[Joe Harlan]

...and, and turbos and nitrous and, and more lead! :twisted:

A plate, SIR and DOT tires, and it will be that much easier to combine us with ST.

No it wont, The cars are way more fun on slicks and you could double down and run
GTL with the SIR. One car to qualify and a Tube framed Yaris for 2016.

 

[TED HEINRITZ]

I would rather not have the SIR in Production class, I might be the only one that feels this way...

One issue, it would be one step closer to combining us with GTL and GT in general.

Depending on the track some prod cars might have a little advantage, but typically the racing in the past has been fairly close.

 

[Gary Wittman]

I think raising the compression ratio, say 1 point to 12.0 to 1, would be a better cost effective, and net result solution.

Unfortunately, that approach is ignoring the full prep cars that are still running. There is not much that can be done to make them go faster. Many L1 cars will not even be able to take advantage of the weight reduction. I don't think we can afford to tell the L1 cars to go play somewhere else. Some have converted to L2 but I don't think all can or will do that.

 

[Brian Linn]

Unfortunately, that approach is ignoring the full prep cars that are still running.

Speaking of the full prep cars, I noticed that the full prep 1098 wasn't listed in the cars getting a weight break. The LP 1098 is there. Is that an oversight or intended?

 

[Neil Verity]

OK I'm a bit confused... can someone point me to where the LBCs got a 30 lb weight break... and did the HP MGB get a similar break?

Neil
#83 HP MGB

 

[Neil Verity]

Never mind... found it

Neil
#83 HP

 

[Ron Bartell]

Unfortunately, that approach is ignoring the full prep cars that are still running.

Speaking of the full prep cars, I noticed that the full prep 1098 wasn't listed in the cars getting a weight break. The LP 1098 is there. Is that an oversight or intended?

Brian - If you look at the changes you will see the last one before the BLMI Mini shows a level 1 Spridget that goes from 1690 to 1660. That is the 1098 full prep level 1 car. It is confusing and I wish they would fix it - they use the 1500 designation as a model not an engine size. They also show the 1275 as level one, but that is the hybrid level 1/2. And, they don't list the level 2 1500 Spridget at all. If you want to run a 1500 it is only listed with the Spit, but it came in both cars.

Gary - I don't agree. The full prep Spit certainly doesn't need any weight taken off. Jamie Blust and Steve Sargis both have turned 4 or 5 mph faster than the LP Spridget at Road America. I thought we were trying to slow down the faster cars in H. I think a front-running G car should be considered one of the faster H cars, but that is just me. As for the full prep 1098, I believe there is something left if you solve the head gasket issue. I remember Chris Fox had dyno numbers that were a good 15 hp more than any LP1275 many years ago. You would only need 5 hp more to have the same hp to weight ratio.

 

[SPEEDSHAK]

What a bunch of BS. Again, punish the guys who did all their homework and used all their resources, legally, to the full extent of the rules.

Lets give another lead trophy to those running upfront. And lets base it off of two cars drafting within inches the entire race.

Yes, the added 275lbs did slow us down. We've never gone as fast since, anywhere. Now its a total of 350lbs since 2011.

Why in the world does everyone complain about other cars instead of lobbying for improvements on theirs? Or better yet, spending that time working on their cars, their driving and their team? We've won 7 national championships now, in four different classes. Is this just a coincidence? I'm sorry, i'm tired of biting my lip and not saying things that need to be said.

If anyone did their homework, they could have seen I was able to achieve 122 mph behind Trainer in 2013 Runoffs race. As soon as I got the lead, 116 was my top speed for the rest of the race. These low HP cars use the draft big time. And with that said, a roadster with less frontal area, benefits from a draft, is even more.

Now we have cars weighing 800lbs apart!!! That's friggen insane and even more impossible to balance. Especially were all on the same small 13" tires. And we're bound to 6" wheels.

Or better yet, especially since the class was running so close and tight the last couple of years. Except the LBC's.

What about the fact that new cars with small motors are producing power in the low to mid one hundreds, stock.

Good thing the radials came out, 13' bias plys would be useless. 2301lbs with our alt gearbox, geesh. 88-o

Why wasn't the effort put toward speeding up the back instead??? An extra point of compression or a alt motor to help them with power on the straights/starts is what is needed to be addressed. And eventually, closing up the weight differential. Then things would be close at all tracks.

Oh well, I guess a slower HProd is better. That's appealing. :roll:

Steve, if Sargis brought out his HP Spit, he'd lap the field. He brought out his HP package specifically to prove a point that roadsters could win in HP. It cost us a title at the time. And if he would have kept campaigning the car in H, we wouldn't have won the last 3 championships, Sargis would have. The CRB needed to make an adjustment on that spec line before, now its imperative.

Oh and the VW's got a weight break? WTH???? They didnt attend MLS, they were a huge factor at RA.

I guess I should just call Adam Malley... We can both sit around and reminisce of being screwed.

 

[Brian Linn]

Brian - If you look at the changes you will see the last one before the BLMI Mini shows a level 1 Spridget that goes from 1690 to 1660. That is the 1098 full prep level 1 car.

Yep - there it is. I looked at that a few times and missed it. I think Jason had told me it was on there, but I couldn't see it.

 

[RICK HAYNES]

I have been following along with the posts , all with some credibility depending on your point of view. But I think Lawrence Loshak comments
" Or better yet, spending that time working on their cars, their driving and their team. We've won 7 national championships now, in four different classes."
a little arrogant. Lawrence ,You can of course blow your own horn if you think it helps your case but you are not in any position to make comments about the amount of effort others put in to their cars , their driving and their team.

 

[bfloyd]

:applause: Rick, well said. :applause:

Bryan Floyd.

P.S. karma can be quite the little bitch.

 

[Joe Harlan]

LL, It is clear that your car is well prepped and well driven. It is built and engineered to the maximum extend of the rules. I think what others are saying is maybe the rules are not written corretly. I think if you are that good then maybe you need to do the same thing in a LBC and prove it.

 

[hoffman900]

LL, It is clear that your car is well prepped and well driven. It is built and engineered to the maximum extend of the rules. I think what others are saying is maybe the rules are not written corretly. I think if you are that good then maybe you need to do the same thing in a LBC and prove it.

Or if they think they're that good, they can buy LL's car?

Steve Hussey (a former Nat'l Champ) couldn't keep pace in the same car.

Joe Huffaker, a 9x champion and MG benchmark in FP (a car many claim was maxed out) was 2 seconds a lap slower and 3+mph slower in a straight line this year against a 20yo karting pro in a program that took off a few years and did some serious R&D by stepping outside the established cottage industry (AVP Heads/Engines).

Who's to say what represents the peak of development and driving? Even F1 and NASCAR aren't equal among teams and drivers.

Performance adjustments are based on one specific race, in when you look at all of racing (road racing, oval, karting etc.) is a pretty small pool of talent - both driving and prep level. It doesn't seem performance adjustments are based on sound engineering / impartial analysis.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Rob Futcher]

Lawrence,

No one would deny the level of prep or development effort that you and your team put in to your cars. Not for a second - but I do agree with Rick that plenty of others have spent years of time and money developing their cars to the full extent of the rule book too and don't deserve to be discredited by anyone. A little respect among us would go a long way to helping find a solution that works for all.

I also agree that having cars with an 800lb disparity running in the same class is alarming - what is needed is not only similar power to weight ratios, but also similar power and weight!

Maybe I am missing something here, but I think the point that some people are trying to make is that the elimination of G Prod effectively created some over-dogs in H (and conversely underdogs in F - most of which are now parked). I take my hat off to those 'original' HP guys who are still persevering and trying to keep the class well balanced for all.

I do believe (someone please correct me if I am wrong) that Steve's win in H was effectively using a GP spec package with a little extra weight added. I think the point proven by Steve was that a GP car is faster than an HP car, not that a roadster can win in H. His performance may also loan credence to Ron's argument that weight doesn't slow the car's terminal velocity as much as the SCCA would like to believe. How did the Honda and Steve's Spit top speeds compare when he won?

Would a point or two of compression taken away from the faster cars have been a better long term solution than adding weight? Are adjustments are needed all around? Speed up the heavy cars round the twisty bits, while slowing them down on the straight and vice versa for the lighter weight, lower powered cars (understanding that some are full prep and already exhibiting less than the LP levels of reliability we all want in our race cars).

No dog in this hunt - just my $0.02 FWIW

 

[JasonIsley99]

I also agree that having cars with an 800lb disparity running in the same class is alarming - what is needed is not only similar power to weight ratios, but also similar power and weight!


Would a point or two of compression taken away from the faster cars have been a better long term solution than adding weight?

If the concern is safety, weight disparity might be an issue if we didn't run with bigger gaps every race less one a year. Outside of the Runoffs I have shared the track with everything from insanely fast GT1 cars, to 3400lb Touring cars, and SRFs. To me closing rate is more scary than weight - I am not thinking about how heavy that GT car is when he is closing in 70mph faster. :lol:

Many of the modern cars are being brought in with only a half a point or less of compression adjustment, there isn't a point or two to take away.

 

[Ron Bartell]

I think that the elimination of G Production has been the biggest mistake that the CRB has made in regard to Production Car racing. They have created a situation where they tried to combine cars with much more horsepower and top speeds with small displacement roadsters. This has caused a huge disparity of weight in order to try to equalize performance. It isn't easy and it will always be an issue and vary with different tracks.

Mr. Loshak is a little bit on the arrogant side. To him I would say bring your highly vaunted car, team, and driving talent to Lime Rock and we will see whether you think the LBC's need to go back and do some development and improve their driving. You and Malley really should get together and talk about how easy it was to win multiple national championships when you were 400 lbs underweight.

The fact of the matter is that G Production, your old class, went away. You were supposed to be brought into an existing and relatively healthy H Production class at a disadvantage and you were NEVER PROPERLY HANDICAPPED. You still aren't in my opinion. That is unless they move the runoffs to Lime Rock.