Another Letter to the CRB on H Production Parity

[SPEEDSHAK]

Balancing limited prep with full prep is a nasty task. Look at what happened in FP this year. We saw a Midget destroy the field with enough power to run with anything out there. How long have we been hearing about how this car is uncompetitive. For those of you that haven't seen the in car video's, check out Eric Prill's video to see what that Midget was doing down the straights. Very impressive! Those guys took it to the next level in development, even Joe Huffaker was highly impressed. This means there's always more out there, no matter how long the cars have been running.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :applause:

Would anyone like to send us a LBC to campaign?

How about some Hi-res photos of these cars?

Again, latest piston designs CP or Mahle has to offer? Cam? Headers? ECU? Shocks? Diffs? Clutches? Wheels? Tires?

IMHO, H has been incredibly close racing the past two years. I'm sorry if your development is unaffordable or you might not have the time you once had.... But, there's many things CRB should be proud of regarding the balancing of so many different makes etc in H.

 

[Ron Bartell]

Would anyone like to send us a LBC to campaign?

You can take mine. It's not going to be used for a while.

Forgive me but I can't let some of those comments sit without a response. What we have in H is NOT like what went on in F. I would agree that there is always something that you can do to a full-prep motor if you are willing to live with less reliability or shorter rebuild cycles. If Saurino had blown up during the race everyone would realize that they pushed it too far. But he didn't, so he took it to the next level.

In H what we have are LIMITED PREP motors. Many of us have gone through many many heads to find one or two that flowed the best. I went through 8 myself. There are stories of as many as 20. I went through 9 intake manifolds to find the best one. My stainless exhaust was dyno tested to be the best of its type. My pistons are custom made with a special dish configuration that is CNC programmed into the top. Cam is the third generation from one of the best engine builders in the country for that type of motor. My jetting was developed after numerous dyno runs and is adjusted for air density. I have two racing gearboxes with different ratios to adjust for different tracks. I am on my third iteration of optimized gearing for that motor.

And the proof is in the pudding. It has proven to be the best 1275 LP motor out there for the last 6 years based on trap speeds at the runoffs. Like Saurino it was faster than all of Joe's motors at L.S. My best lap at RA is about 2 seconds faster than the second best Spridget. Sure there are other fast Spridgets that could be right up there. That is why I want to get them back out so it can't be said that my program is the problem.

Now, Lawrence; how many heads did you flow to get the best one? How many intake manifolds? What generation of cam are you using?

I am frankly tired of having to defend a development program that, for that type of car is right up there with the best. Sure I suck as a driver, but do you think you could take 4 seconds off of my best lap at RA with my car? If you think you can I would be willing to bet you can't.

If you think that you and your crew can take one of these cars and do a lot better without cheating, I am sorry, but you just don't know what you are talking about. Tell you what - since you want an LBC to show us how fast you can make it, why not switch cars for a year. I'll rent yours and you can have mine for free.

edited - I will agree with one thing that Jesse said about balancing limited prep to full prep: The 1147 Spitfire and 1098 Spridget are always potential runaways because someone could develop one of them beyond what has been done before and clean up with it at certain tracks. They carry a lot of weight but can make a lot of horsepower if someone wanted to go closer to the ultimate limit. Doubt that the 948 has much left in it though.

 

[Bill Blust]

Jesse Prather wrote:
Balancing limited prep with full prep is a nasty task. Look at what happened in FP this year. We saw a Midget destroy the field with enough power to run with anything out there. How long have we been hearing about how this car is uncompetitive. For those of you that haven't seen the in car video's, check out Eric Prill's video to see what that Midget was doing down the straights. Very impressive! Those guys took it to the next level in development, even Joe Huffaker was highly impressed. This means there's always more out there, no matter how long the cars have been running.

Jesse and Lawrence, Ron and others are NOT refering to the full prep 1275cc Spridget motors in either GTL or FP. Nor about tube frame Spridgets because they are not allowed in F or H. They are refering to the disparity between the Hondas/Toyotas and the LP 1275 HP motor in the Spridget. Lets stay on the issue that Ron proposed.


Lawrence Loshak wrote

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Would anyone like to send us a LBC to campaign?

How about some Hi-res photos of these cars?

Again, latest piston designs CP or Mahle has to offer? Cam? Headers? ECU? Shocks? Diffs? Clutches? Wheels? Tires?

IMHO, H has been incredibly close racing the past two years. I'm sorry if your development is unaffordable or you might not have the time you once had.... .



I have thought a few weeks about the wording of my response so I will only say....Your inference that Ron's car or a Spridget chassis built by Huffaker are not fully developed is incorrect. Please take up Ron's offer and take his car for 2015 season especially if the Honda or Toyota are raced at the 2014 spec. Stay within the rules and show us all up, please.

Also, you said But, there's many things CRB should be proud of regarding the balancing of so many different makes etc in H

Yes, they should be proud of upholding the directive of most of our BOD "We want the new cars to win!!!" And they did, your race with Jason was great..well done by both.

As to the reference to your expressed sorrow for underfunded cars... I can assure you that also is incorrect.

Again...please show us we are wrong and take Ron's offer of "borrowing" his National Championship HP Spridget. After a more proper development take your new "Speedshak" Spridget and TRY and run the times you ran in your Honda AT Laguna. Of course we will be there for the tear down.

Thank you,

Bill Blust

 

[Jason Stine]

Doubt that the 948 has much left in it though.

Ron - I completely agree with that comment. I'm going to give it one last shot in 2016 and then take a year off to do a proper conversion to the 1275.

But, there's many things CRB should be proud of regarding the balancing of so many different makes etc in H.

What makes are those? Honda and Honda? The "newer" VWs can't keep up, and even Isley's 5 year old Yaris barely could. What about the Spridgets, Spits, Fiats, etc.? You won't have a championship to win without them padding the participation numbers all season long.

 

[Brian Linn]

Doubt that the 948 has much left in it though.

Ron - I completely agree with that comment. I'm going to give it one last shot in 2016 and then take a year off to do a proper conversion to the 1275.

I see that they've taken a bunch of weight off the 948. What is the min that you can reasonably get a Sprite down to in weight? I can't remember what mine was, but I think I had about 40# of ballast and I think the weight was 1577#. You would probably have to start from scratch to get to 1450#.

 

[Jason Stine]

Hey Brian - I can get down to about 1460 with a dry fuel cell. It helped a little, but nowhere near enough to keep it competitive (although, some of that is the driver)

 

[JessePrather]

I was really just talking about balancing full prep vs. limited prep. Old vs. new. It's a tough task for the committee.
No offense meant. I love British cars!!!
I just don't want to race one and commend you guys for keeping at it.

 

[Jason Stine]

Jesse - totally off topic... is your dad still running the MGA in vintage?

 

[Don Feller]

Jesse, you're not going to race a bathtub Porsche with a furnace duct from front to back?

 

[Rob Futcher]

Ref Steve Sargis's H win at Road America - After the loss of G prod, wasn't Steve's car effectively a full prep 1147cc G car with a little weight added to try to equalize it in H?

 

[jbecker]

Slowing the old G prod cars should be possible. If the prod committee can't come to grips with controlling intake thru SRI or restrictor plates then lowering the compression or lift is a possible but more expensive option. Weight just does't seem to work but the powers that control the rules seem to have that concept hard wired to their brains. Or we could all just fade away to vintage or buy Hondas.

 

[Protech Racing]

Any plate or SIR would require a cam anyway. The cam is the cheapest way for 90% of the cars we race. My custom .425 lift cams cost way more than the custom oval cams did.

I vote to put the LBC cars in GP.

 

[Joe Harlan]

Any plate or SIR would require a cam anyway. The cam is the cheapest way for 90% of the cars we race. My custom .425 lift cams cost way more than the custom oval cams did.

I vote to put the LBC cars in GP.

Actually very doubtful that those low cam lifts would require a cam change for an SIR.

 

[JessePrather]

Yes, dad runs the MGA in vintage. We restored it to like new condition a few years ago. Funny it's had more body damage in Vintage racing than in SCCA!

No porsche's for me either!

 

[SPEEDSHAK]

Would anyone like to send us a LBC to campaign?

You can take mine. It's not going to be used for a while.

Forgive me but I can't let some of those comments sit without a response. What we have in H is NOT like what went on in F. I would agree that there is always something that you can do to a full-prep motor if you are willing to live with less reliability or shorter rebuild cycles. If Saurino had blown up during the race everyone would realize that they pushed it too far. But he didn't, so he took it to the next level.

In H what we have are LIMITED PREP motors. Many of us have gone through many many heads to find one or two that flowed the best. I went through 8 myself. There are stories of as many as 20. I went through 9 intake manifolds to find the best one. My stainless exhaust was dyno tested to be the best of its type. My pistons are custom made with a special dish configuration that is CNC programmed into the top. Cam is the third generation from one of the best engine builders in the country for that type of motor. My jetting was developed after numerous dyno runs and is adjusted for air density. I have two racing gearboxes with different ratios to adjust for different tracks. I am on my third iteration of optimized gearing for that motor.

And the proof is in the pudding. It has proven to be the best 1275 LP motor out there for the last 6 years based on trap speeds at the runoffs. Like Saurino it was faster than all of Joe's motors at L.S. My best lap at RA is about 2 seconds faster than the second best Spridget. Sure there are other fast Spridgets that could be right up there. That is why I want to get them back out so it can't be said that my program is the problem.

Now, Lawrence; how many heads did you flow to get the best one? How many intake manifolds? What generation of cam are you using?

I am frankly tired of having to defend a development program that, for that type of car is right up there with the best. Sure I suck as a driver, but do you think you could take 4 seconds off of my best lap at RA with my car? If you think you can I would be willing to bet you can't.

If you think that you and your crew can take one of these cars and do a lot better without cheating, I am sorry, but you just don't know what you are talking about. Tell you what - since you want an LBC to show us how fast you can make it, why not switch cars for a year. I'll rent yours and you can have mine for free.

edited - I will agree with one thing that Jesse said about balancing limited prep to full prep: The 1147 Spitfire and 1098 Spridget are always potential runaways because someone could develop one of them beyond what has been done before and clean up with it at certain tracks. They carry a lot of weight but can make a lot of horsepower if someone wanted to go closer to the ultimate limit. Doubt that the 948 has much left in it though.

Thanks Ron, I actually would love to take you up on your offer. We're, always up for a challenge.

In addition, I will admit, I have never seen your car up close. From your description above, sounds like you have been pushing the R&D. Yes, we go through several heads and manifolds to pick the right one. Header is 4th design. Cam, 4th or 5th version. 2nd engine management system. 3rd different set of injectors. 2 gearboxes now, but went through several ratios and FD over the years. 5th different set of shocks. Splitters, airdams, etc. Cages, tube here or there. Weight here or there. Including all the R&D over the years in FP, ITA and Ice racing the CRX.

If I cant sell my car, a rental is something I'd consider to the right person. Again, I'd love to drive your car and put sometime into it... But I cant next season. There's a reason I'm selling everything... I'm moving to TransAm and racing TA2 next season. With a 12 race schedule from March to November, my wife would kill me if I signed onto that project. Budget is good, but tight and why I need to sell... A rental actually sounds like a good idea.

Maybe you could convince our shop/teammates Mark and Dan Meller (2009 HP Champ) to run your car next season. They were a monumental part of developing the CRX in HP.

But again, I'd love to drive your car sometime. Thanks for trusting me with it.

 

[Ron Bartell]

Thanks Ron, I actually would love to take you up on your offer. We're, always up for a challenge.

In addition, I will admit, I have never seen your car up close. From your description above, sounds like you have been pushing the R&D. Yes, we go through several heads and manifolds to pick the right one. Header is 4th design. Cam, 4th or 5th version. 2nd engine management system. 3rd different set of injectors. 2 gearboxes now, but went through several ratios and FD over the years. 5th different set of shocks. Splitters, airdams, etc. Cages, tube here or there. Weight here or there. Including all the R&D over the years in FP, ITA and Ice racing the CRX.

If I cant sell my car, a rental is something I'd consider to the right person. Again, I'd love to drive your car and put sometime into it... But I cant next season. There's a reason I'm selling everything... I'm moving to TransAm and racing TA2 next season. With a 12 race schedule from March to November, my wife would kill me if I signed onto that project. Budget is good, but tight and why I need to sell... A rental actually sounds like a good idea.

Maybe you could convince our shop/teammates Mark and Dan Meller (2009 HP Champ) to run your car next season. They were a monumental part of developing the CRX in HP.

But again, I'd love to drive your car sometime. Thanks for trusting me with it.

Next year would be the year that it needs to happen. With the Runoffs at Daytona I don't have much interest in going with the rules as they are. You should take a look at some of these cars when you get a chance. Mine is not all that pretty but everything is there to make it fast. So I would be interested in knowing what Dan and Mark would key in on to develop if they were to run one of these cars, now that you have a better idea of what has already been done to them. I feel that your opinion that there is a lot more to develop is based on looking at some of the other tin tops in the field. Some of the LBC types have the same opinion of them that you apparently have of us. That is what is so disturbing. There are championship caliber cars being run with and even beaten by under-developed tin tops where the driver says "and next week I'm going to put in the good pistons and replace the stock clutch and flywheel". Drives us crazy, and is the reason why some of the fast ones have been parked.

Anyway, let me know if your car is available to rent for the Runoffs. I am very interested. Also, I think I will be bringing my car down to the Florida races in January next year and I would be willing to let you try it in one of them then if that works for you.

 

[SPEEDSHAK]

There are championship caliber cars being run with and even beaten by under-developed tin tops where the driver says "and next week I'm going to put in the good pistons and replace the stock clutch and flywheel". Drives us crazy, and is the reason why some of the fast ones have been parked.

Yeah, thats an issue if that's the case. But without being there or seeing a video... Theres also the driver which is a factor. Weather its talent or not enough guts to push the limits for a pass etc. We just dont know, because with a LBC, thats its strength, should be braking and handling. No matter what, a LBC should be vastly superior in chicanes, quick change in direction etc with a tremendous amount of less weight carried.

Me not being part of the CRB or any committee, I can say this. Its a tough job. And what do you do now? I always cringed at the fact you get 2 trophies at the runoffs. The one for winning and a lead one for... Winning. For example, there are several same spec line civics and CRX's that aren't as fast as ours. And I assure you, it is not the car described in your quote above. Nor any car that out qualified you at the Runoffs. Take a look at my times in the race, had you not be taken out, I believe you would have been a HUGE factor in the outcome.

So what's next? Is it fair to now reduce compression on the CRX and Yaris? We should have to throw our $900 pistons in the trash and buy another set of $900 pistons with less compression? Which could lead to throwing away our cams which may not work with less compression? And once were all said and done, CRX and Yaris etc are slowed down... Then another new car comes out (or a VW etc) and runs away from us away too (Which BTW, there wasn't near the VW representation at LS as there was a year before at RA). It is becoming harder and harder to find small bore, low hp cars to add to the class. And this must be kept in mind to keep the class alive. A honda fit, a chevy sonic and any other ugly little B-spec econo box. Base horsepower is only going up.

IMHO, the LBC's should find more power. You asked what we would do if we would try to develop you car. I would concentrate power and perfecting the setup for my driving style. In the JDR, in 2012, we picked up 3 seconds with just setup. Which is just .2 of a second per corner. Anyway, you guys know your cars best. What can be done to increase your power? Is there a common engine that everyone could use? Converting to FI? G prod motors? Because lets face it, there will be more IT cars etc trickling into H than new LBC's built for H. What are constructive ideas and suggestions?

And yes, Im interested in running your car at Sebring. Thats my 1st race in TA2 in March. :twisted:

 

[Ron Bartell]

And yes, Im interested in running your car at Sebring. Thats my 1st race in TA2 in March. :twisted:

Just reread this and realized I wasn't clear on when I will be going to Sebring. When I said next year I meant 2016. I won't be doing much in 2015 unless something changes. Sorry about any confusion.

 

[RICK HAYNES]

I just read your comment's Jesse, I was willing to let this lie but your not too subtle shot at the past competiveness of the midgets was hard to miss. Nigel Saurino doing as well as he did this year in no way justifies the sneaky and underhanded way you acted about the Midget and Lotus when you were on the ad-hoc. People on the inside still know what happened. And I remember the contacts we had about the matter and how you were not straight with me. You conveniently left out the midget is lighter now { which was what was being ask for years ago] and it was a track the Midget is much better matched on. But all that aside The fact is you didn't act in a way your position on the ad-hoc demanded. You can expect your attempts to clear your conscience here will be replied to, so it might be best if you just left this subject alone

In no way should my comments about this be interpreted as negative about Nigel great drive and well deserved win in F/P this year.

rick haynes

 

[Ron Bartell]

My original letter framed the problem of the inequality of performance potential in H Production, but offered no solution to this problem in terms of either slowing down the faster cars or speeding up the slower ones. Now there has been a letter written by a very influential and credible engine builder and car developer from another class who has thought this issue through and has proposed slowing down the faster cars by way of an SIR. His rationale is that these cars have demonstrated a higher top speed that can not be reached by the Spridgets, and this will only be worse at Daytona; that the SIR has proven to be a very good way of dealing with performance differentials associated with horsepower in GTL; and that the Spridgets continue to be a significant part of the makeup of H Production and shouldn’t be made to go away. Hopefully it isn’t too late for something to happen in time for next year.

If you agree with this approach, or in fact if you agree with the need to address it in some way, even if you are in another class, please write a letter to the CRB expressing your opinion. Thank you.