KVRG - Double Majors Invitational - HPT July 14-15

[blamkin86]

I was under the impression is was to appease the larger subscribed class competitors who were complaining about the amount of track time they got at a national.

At this year's HPR Super Tour, there was no Sunday practice. Instead we have a 25 minute qualifying session. I'm pretty sure there was last year. Meaning, I believe we actually had less track time than previous years. We also had 6 groups for the first time I can remember.

Here's the HPR SuperTour supps: http://www.coloradoscca.org/posts/SuppsHPR063012NN.pdf

Both the HPT and PMP events had a 10 minute Sunday practice, and a 20 minute qualifying race.

I don't see how I'm getting any more track time. I guess it technically is 5 more minutes. If that's supposed to be the draw, I think someone needs to rethink it.

I skipped Pueblo for health reasons (was loaded and everything) and HPT only because the event was scheduled too close in time to the HPR event. I'm just one driver tho.

 

[KDENNIS]

I was under the impression is was to appease the larger subscribed class competitors who were complaining about the amount of track time they got at a national.

At this year's HPR Super Tour, there was no Sunday practice. Instead we have a 25 minute qualifying session. I'm pretty sure there was last year. Meaning, I believe we actually had less track time than previous years. We also had 6 groups for the first time I can remember.
Here's the HPR SuperTour supps: http://www.coloradoscca.org/posts/SuppsHPR063012NN.pdf
Both the HPT and PMP events had a 10 minute Sunday practice, and a 20 minute qualifying race.
I don't see how I'm getting any more track time. I guess it technically is 5 more minutes. If that's supposed to be the draw, I think someone needs to rethink it.
I skipped Pueblo for health reasons (was loaded and everything) and HPT only because the event was scheduled too close in time to the HPR event. I'm just one driver tho.

Ok, I am confused. Are we comparing a National to a Major, or a Super Tour to a Major, or a Super Tour Major Double Hybrid Rational National to a Major Minor Invitational Super Sweep Rational Enduro with a Bonus Double Invitational Group? :lol:

 

[blamkin86]

My understanding (for what that's worth) is that the "Majors" is an umbrella that encompasses many events, including the invitationals (PMP and HPT and something else???) as well as the BGF Super Tour events.

At least that's what I thought.

I think you forgot the MiataNationals (now with B-Spec bonus race).

What's really funny about all this - to me it seems the Rational program is the best subscribed of all these ideas.

Were I a pessimist, I would think the Majors program looks a lot like the SCCA wants to take back control of all National events.

 

[KDENNIS]

I don't see how I'm getting any more track time. I guess it technically is 5 more minutes. If that's supposed to be the draw, I think someone needs to rethink it.

Seriously, If you compare the HPT Major to say the Glen National. The car I crewed for had one session Friday, One session Saturday, and raced on Sunday. 3 Days, 3 Sessions.
HPT Major, 6 sessions in 2 days, which included 2 races (qualifying, national).

 

[blamkin86]

Kevin, I'd submit the difference is entirely a function of car count - or perhaps groups * sessions count...

 

[zChris]

"Were I a pessimist, I would think the Majors program looks a lot like the SCCA wants to take back control of all National events"

Around here, NEDIV, that would be a good thing. Assuming Topeka would actually listen to the racers. Large assumption. Right now the nationals are decided by a squabling group of regional RE's that have profit, not the betterment of the national racing program, in mind. And as such we have more supply than demand. Hence poorly attended events. And not one double national at an in division track. Its like there trying to fail at there job. What, the customer(member) wants what, F'them is all I hear. I hear RE's talk about how they need to keep the regions happy. Is this a racing club?
Chris

 

[KDENNIS]

Kevin, I'd submit the difference is entirely a function of car count - or perhaps groups * sessions count...

No doubt, I think its totally dependant on run group count. That is one of the very strong arguments against any kind of class consolidation and conversely the argument why a class can't be added to the regular National program. If we don't lose or add a complete run group why does it matter if there is a class added or subtracted to an already existing run group. For example, adding GP to small bore run group has no consequences, the run group is already there. Subtracting CSR from the run group does not eliminate the run group, just the class. There is no gain in track time, which is usually the argument to eliminate classes....more track time. I don't necessarily agree, but it is a valid argument.
Thats why I was under the impression the Majors program was all about track time. Fewer classes = fewer run groups = more track time.

 

[cbovis]

Kevin- If I misunderstood your position, please accept my apology. Sarcasm is hard to read at times.

Jon- We agree on so much, but your comment about doing something can be easily proven insane. Being in law enforcement, examples should be obvious. For example, a homeless guy needs money so he starts selling drugs and guns. At least he's doing something, right?

Everyone- We are arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Discussions about classes, intent, and track time miss the obvious problem. SCCA is founded as a sanctioning body which provides the structure that race promoters must adhere too. SCCA Pro is (was) a race promoter, and so are the Regions.

SCCA grants Regions permission to generate revenue through event promotion. The Regions are taking the financial risk, not SCCA. The returns (and losses) to the Regions are higher, and SCCA makes a steady, low risk but low margin income. Regions rely on SCCA to allow them to generate the majority of their income.

Now, SCCA is competing against the regions and turning the tables on the risk/reward scenario. In the case of some events, this is positive. However, if the events are not financially viable, perhaps they shouldn't exist rather than be subsidized by the government (SCCA).

In the case of successful events, there is a MASSIVE conflict of interest. Let’s say that a region refuses to share revenue with SCCA because their event is successful and funds 50% of their annual Region budget. After 40 years of equity in an event, it’s easy to see that they should get the financial reward from their hard work.

Now SCCA decides they want that revenue, so they put a double Majors with triple points (or whatever) on the same weekend at a race track 60 miles away. They advertise with inserts in membership mailings they already send, and use complimentary or trade inventory in magazines, and redirect national sponsorship.

Over 2 years, this kills the 40 year old Region owned event, and destroys 50% of the revenue for that Region’s annual budget. Suddenly, the Region is no longer financially viable due the change in SCCA’s business model.

Do we want SCCA to become an event promoter, on the hook for maybe $50,000-$80,000 per event nationwide? Do we want SCCA to have a fundamental conflict of interest with the Regions? Do we want centralized control and central planning running our sport?

 

[disquek]

Kevin,

To be fair the WGI schedule is a bad example to use. It was only one group (small bore) that had that screwed up schedule and we all knew that the reason for this wacky schedule was the opportunity to keep the extra day if we were able to restore sanity in having that weekend as a double for next year.

-Kyle

 

[KDENNIS]

Over 2 years, this kills the 40 year old Region owned event, and destroys 50% of the revenue for that Region’s annual budget. Suddenly, the Region is no longer financially viable due the change in SCCA’s business model.

Do we want SCCA to become an event promoter, on the hook for maybe $50,000-$80,000 per event nationwide? Do we want SCCA to have a fundamental conflict of interest with the Regions? Do we want centralized control and central planning running our sport?

I don't see that happening. I don't think the Jumbo Regions would let that happen. Its too easy to get their own insurance. These are the guys and gals that actually put on the races. The idea that the regions are helpless pawns in this scenario isn't accurate. Did you know the Jumbo regions have regular conference calls to discuss such issues? I have heard rumors of some southeast regions already having Plan B in place, just waiting for Topeka to dip the hand in a little to far.

 

[Bobby Lentz]

I would say that if you look to who the club has hired to support this program, they should be given credit for being very clever in how they sell this program to the regions.

I am all for national taking back control of national racing to improve the product which I don't think is possible with all the regions acting independently. I disagree with the approach they have chosen. I have been vocal with the bod that I would rather them just assert control over how many nationals there are. They exert no positive control on this today. The problem is that this puts them at war with the regions. A war they many not win. I think there should be 40 nationals total nationwide. 50 car weekends are just silly IMO.

 

[cbovis]

Bobby- the limiting factor to the number of National races is financial viability. To your point, the proper way to handle this is not centralized control and a conflict of interest, but a change in the financial model that makes the penality for failure much worse. I am not an expert on this issue, but if the "break even" was higher (event budget or annual budget) for the Regions, there would be fewer events. Maybe a $15,000 sanction fee, I don't know. Clearly, SCCA has taken the opposite approach by subsidizing events. (Take note- we actually agreed on something.)

I am aware that the large regions are concerned and getting organized, but I just wish/hope this could be avoided in the first place. The 80/20 rule exists among the Regions, and if the 20% that generate 80% of the activity decide to leave, its not good for our sport or the history I value so much.

 

[Karl McColl]

I am not an expert on this issue, but if the "break even" was higher (event budget or annual budget) for the Regions, there would be fewer events. Maybe a $15,000 sanction fee,

You can't be serious. Tax us into success? really? If you want less Nationals per Division just create a rule that sets the number of Nationals per Division and leave the Regions treasuries alone.

As a borderline jumbo region, Colorado tries to balance the needs of the drivers with our ability to staff an event. Sure we try to break even or eak out a profit, losing on schools and most regionals and barely making it up on our two double Nationals.

There were indeed too many events in RMDiv in 2012. That is going to self correct in 2013 as regions react to thier 2012 results; in terms of profitability (or lack thereof), understaffing and low entries at most events.

Sadly when I see many familiar faces at a NASA or Vintage event I wonder are there really too many scca events? or maybe if our fees and such were structured so we could compete on an entry fee basis with these other clubs would we stop the bleed off of participants?

 

[David Dewhurst]

Will someone please point me in the direction of the sheet showing the number of events/entries/per division/showing all divisions as was available last year. Year 2011 would be good. I thought I had saved it, but can't find it. I would again like to look at some of lhe lesser attended events by divison.

Thanks

 

[Aaron Johnson]

How did the majors event at hpt compare to the showcase event at hpt?

 

[VWRalf]

The May Showcase event at HPT was a drivers school, Vintage, PDX, Rational event.
1 DSR
5 SRF
2 FV
2 STO
1 T1
5 GT3
1 GT1
1 T2
3 AS
2 GT2
4 STL
1 GTA
1 SM
1 HP
1 of each in: ITE, ITB, IT7, ITS, ITR
5 ITA
13 Vintage cars
3 students in the drivers school
Not sure how many entries in the PDX. Maybe 20?

 

[KelleyHux]

Will someone please point me in the direction of the sheet showing the number of events/entries/per division/showing all divisions as was available last year. Year 2011 would be good.

Here's the link to the page with the link to the 2012 numbers -
http://www.scca.com/clubracing/content. ... 467&tag=51

(If the above link doesn't work - http://www.scca.com -> Club Racing -> National -> Participation link is in the middle of the page.)

Kelley Huxtable
DMVR
"PLAY SAFE"

 

[David Dewhurst]

http://www.scca.com/clubracing/content. ... 467&tag=51[/url]

(If the above link doesn't work - http://www.scca.com -> Club Racing -> National -> Participation link is in the middle of the page.)

Kelley Huxtable
DMVR
"PLAY SAFE"

Thank you Kelly. Deanna F. from SCCA guided me to the same deal today (the 2012 current numbers are thru May only) & she sent me the final numbers for 2011.

When loking at these new programs it will be interesting with the year end numbers. Entries are an entirely different animals for the different divisions. What may play in some division may not play in other divisions. :think: