Angelo f. Vacchio
Well-known member
Great race guys enjoyed every bit of it.Jason you had that Yaris flying! Sprman : )
HP Runoffs thread
- Thread starter Dayle Frame
- Start date
JasonIsley99
Well-known member
Got some great shots courtesy of Toyota Motorsports today.
Ron Bartell
Well-known member
First, my sincere appologies to all those lovers of LBC's who look to me to carry the banner. We unloaded a fast and pretty car and during the first qualy were on the pole in only 3 timed laps. Things were looking good at that point and we enjoyed the moment in the sun.
However, I was not taking the car to the limit in the braking zone and when I started doing that on the second qualy I spun and contacted the wall in T5. At that point I was questioning my driving ability so we didn't try to find the root cause of the spin. I chalked it up to going in too deep, although I hadn't really pushed my braking point but was just getting on them aggreessively. With the hard work of Dan Collishaw and Larry Savage and others (thanks a lot guys) we got the car back together and during Q3 I turned some good laps but was slowly going deeper on my braking points. When I needed one good lap I got after it and pushed my braking points and spun in T3, an area that normally is never a problem for me.
At that point I felt I really needed to find out what was going on with the brakes, so for the rest of that lap I tested them by braking really hard. Most of the time they worked correctly but there was occasionally a tendency to lock up, but they would release. Finally, and I mean finally, while going half speed on the back straight I hit the brakes hard and couldn't believe it when they locked up and put me right into the wall. The radiator was porked and everything on the front end was crunched, but there is no suspension damage so it can be rebuilt.
From talking to a couple people there seems to be some tribal knowledge about the aluminum Wilwood brakes that we were not aware of. Apparently you need to keep the piston in the housing as much as possible and if the brake pads are worn at all the piston comes out and cocks sideways and locks. I have not confirmed this yet, but it sure seems like that is what bit me.
It really hurt not being in the field but it is a first for 23 tries so I guess it could be worse. Congratulations to Mike Moser on his first Runoffs win and a great drive for Mike Origer and Greg. Good racing further back as well. It was fun to watch even as painful as it was.
However, I was not taking the car to the limit in the braking zone and when I started doing that on the second qualy I spun and contacted the wall in T5. At that point I was questioning my driving ability so we didn't try to find the root cause of the spin. I chalked it up to going in too deep, although I hadn't really pushed my braking point but was just getting on them aggreessively. With the hard work of Dan Collishaw and Larry Savage and others (thanks a lot guys) we got the car back together and during Q3 I turned some good laps but was slowly going deeper on my braking points. When I needed one good lap I got after it and pushed my braking points and spun in T3, an area that normally is never a problem for me.
At that point I felt I really needed to find out what was going on with the brakes, so for the rest of that lap I tested them by braking really hard. Most of the time they worked correctly but there was occasionally a tendency to lock up, but they would release. Finally, and I mean finally, while going half speed on the back straight I hit the brakes hard and couldn't believe it when they locked up and put me right into the wall. The radiator was porked and everything on the front end was crunched, but there is no suspension damage so it can be rebuilt.
From talking to a couple people there seems to be some tribal knowledge about the aluminum Wilwood brakes that we were not aware of. Apparently you need to keep the piston in the housing as much as possible and if the brake pads are worn at all the piston comes out and cocks sideways and locks. I have not confirmed this yet, but it sure seems like that is what bit me.
It really hurt not being in the field but it is a first for 23 tries so I guess it could be worse. Congratulations to Mike Moser on his first Runoffs win and a great drive for Mike Origer and Greg. Good racing further back as well. It was fun to watch even as painful as it was.
Matt Blehm
Moderator
Ron,
Re Wilwood calipers:
I have heard the caliper bores wear better if you use pad spacers/shims, but I have never heard of the calipers seizing under hard braking like that.
In ~10 years of DEs and a few years of racing on Wilwoods, I've used 5 sets of Wilwood calipers on 3 cars. (Forged Superlite-4 and Dynalite), 1.25" thick rotors, 1.75" piston dia. I've run probably 60 sets of pads down to the backing plates with no spacers and have NEVER had a failure other than leaking seals-- and that was because I was in a hurry and didn't clean the pistons during a pad replacement. Usually a quick scuff with fine steel wool to remove brake dust, then I press the pistons back into the calipers and drop in the pads.
..... I rebuild the calipers after roughly 100hrs on track--- pop the pistons out with air compressor, scrub w/ steel wool, clean caliper bores/bodies of any debris, replace seals and bleeders, reassemble, reinstall.
I'm terribly sorry you had the crash, but I would not entirely blame that on a caliper issue without further inspection. There will definitely be evidence of this type of thing as soon as you pop the pistons out. I'm certainly not saying it didn't happen, but it wouldn't be my first assumption.
That said, do you have uneven pad wear issues? My Dynalites were pretty bad about pad taper, but I've simply flipped the pads at about 50% wear so they run "backwards" in relation and you wind up using about 95% of the pad material. My experience with Superlites has been better, and they are a MUCH stiffer caliper so the pads don't taper as much vertically either. The calipers with differential piston bores help reduce pad taper quite a bit, but they make the math a bit more fun when calculating bias.
The only time I've ever had a piston seize on me was when I was trying to press the pistons back in crooked and got them cocked in the bore. putting everything back together and tapping the brake pedal popped the piston back out and I was more careful pressing it in, then all was good from then on.
I just wonder if you're having major pad taper problems and maybe the pistons are getting *that* crooked in the bores. I would think you shouldn't have that kind of tapering though...
Re Wilwood calipers:
I have heard the caliper bores wear better if you use pad spacers/shims, but I have never heard of the calipers seizing under hard braking like that.
In ~10 years of DEs and a few years of racing on Wilwoods, I've used 5 sets of Wilwood calipers on 3 cars. (Forged Superlite-4 and Dynalite), 1.25" thick rotors, 1.75" piston dia. I've run probably 60 sets of pads down to the backing plates with no spacers and have NEVER had a failure other than leaking seals-- and that was because I was in a hurry and didn't clean the pistons during a pad replacement. Usually a quick scuff with fine steel wool to remove brake dust, then I press the pistons back into the calipers and drop in the pads.
..... I rebuild the calipers after roughly 100hrs on track--- pop the pistons out with air compressor, scrub w/ steel wool, clean caliper bores/bodies of any debris, replace seals and bleeders, reassemble, reinstall.
I'm terribly sorry you had the crash, but I would not entirely blame that on a caliper issue without further inspection. There will definitely be evidence of this type of thing as soon as you pop the pistons out. I'm certainly not saying it didn't happen, but it wouldn't be my first assumption.
That said, do you have uneven pad wear issues? My Dynalites were pretty bad about pad taper, but I've simply flipped the pads at about 50% wear so they run "backwards" in relation and you wind up using about 95% of the pad material. My experience with Superlites has been better, and they are a MUCH stiffer caliper so the pads don't taper as much vertically either. The calipers with differential piston bores help reduce pad taper quite a bit, but they make the math a bit more fun when calculating bias.
The only time I've ever had a piston seize on me was when I was trying to press the pistons back in crooked and got them cocked in the bore. putting everything back together and tapping the brake pedal popped the piston back out and I was more careful pressing it in, then all was good from then on.
I just wonder if you're having major pad taper problems and maybe the pistons are getting *that* crooked in the bores. I would think you shouldn't have that kind of tapering though...
Jay Griffin
Well-known member
Matt Brannon":37bv5rey said:
Nope, nothing broke, I just took too much time to get to the grid. Don't ask me why but for whatever reason I had the idea that we had a 8:40 start time instead of 8:30. When I was driving to the grid at 8:25 and my son in law asked on the radio why these cars were going up pit lane...well. I bet you can imagine what I was thinking. :doh:
I did have an interesting week I will say that, from wasting pretty much the entire Sunday test day with a faulty ECU to chasing a crazy loose car Monday (and Thursday/Friday). Wanting to dump the radials Friday after our session for a set of bias plys (the Hoosier guys were gone by that time). Later that evening discovering that I had the rear axle thrust angle out by 1/8" to the left. No wonder the car was so bad in the right hand turns.
Then my son in law discovered a broken piston skirt after the Saturday AM session. Which necessitated the Saturday evening engine change as the temperature slowly dropped into the 40's. Started it up just before 10PM and we were both tired, cold & hungry.
Starting from the back at the Runoffs wasn't my plan, but then again, a LOT of things that went on last week weren't in my plans. I got up to just behind Andrew Wright in the carousel and noticed the double yellows 'just' after I got around him going into the kink and waved him back around. Then at the end of the two lap caution the car stumbled going into 13, and again going up to 14. Going up the hill to the green (I knew it was out) the car just fell on its face. That's when I cycled the Master switch to see if it would help (hey, it did about 7 times in Topeka in '08) but not this time. Glanced over at my O2 display and saw the letters 'batt' in bright red and knew I was done. So I just coasted down the hill, parked it behind turn 3 station... and wanted to just disappear.
Evidently my ten month old Florida battery just couldn't handle the coldest morning of the week. Even though I had it on the charger every night and it worked perfectly every other day, even that morning for the hardship.
I really enjoyed this race track, more than a few challenging places around those four miles. Especially if your car is as loose as mine felt all week. After one of the Sunday test sessions Greg Gauper asked me what I thought of the track, the best answer I could come up with was 'it's very daunting'.
Speaking of Greg, I have to thank both he and Tracy VERY much as they were both willing to help me out during the Sunday and Monday test days. I was alone until Thursday when my wife and crew arrived. They didn't have to do any of that but were more than willing to assist me in anything I did (or didn't) ask for. Not to mention Greg even fixed us some Italian Chicago beef subs one night, was that it Greg? Normally I don't like soggy bread but these were REALLY good! Thanks so much again Greg and Tracy.
Dayle, Thanks for putting on the prod party.The food was great and I really enjoyed myself, even the rain wasn't too bad. At least it wasn't as cold as it got that weekend.
Congratulations to all of the finishers. I'd like to say that someday I may even finish this race! But as of right now, I doubt I'll be back. Lynn said she's done going through this, and I can't blame her. I'm not sure I'm willing to put up with another disappointment like that. Maybe I'll feel different about it later, time will tell.
Not quitting racing though, it's still something I'm very passionate about.
Greg Gauper
Well-known member
Chicago style Itailan Beef.
Hard to find outside the Midwest.
You're welcome!
Actually I had ulterior motives...
I was trying to fatten you up to slow you down :lol:
Still trying to figure out how you went one MPH faster thru the speed traps than me in Qualifying :think:
I guess loose is fast!
Hard to find outside the Midwest.
You're welcome!
Actually I had ulterior motives...
I was trying to fatten you up to slow you down :lol:
Still trying to figure out how you went one MPH faster thru the speed traps than me in Qualifying :think:
I guess loose is fast!
Jay Griffin
Well-known member
Greg Gauper":1vbdvo9o said:
I told you, I had a new camshaft grind made since we raced in the spring. :mrgreen:
Had to mention the speed trap thing didn't you. :| I hadn't looked at it at all until you mentioned it. Evidently the piston damage was starting after the first session, I had my best speeds Thursday and never reached those same speeds again after that. Even though the car was handling better by Saturday.
JasonIsley99
Well-known member
Sadly the 2012 Yaris got dropped off at Toyota HQ today, and its next stop will be the crusher. The car was to far gone to fix economically, and there was no support to carry the program on beyond its introductory year.
craig bryant
Well-known member
Jason
Very sorry to hear that. It was always nice to go to the races and see how much attention was being given to Jamie through the GoPro connection. It's great for the whole club. That doesn't affect your plans for next year, does it?
Craig
Very sorry to hear that. It was always nice to go to the races and see how much attention was being given to Jamie through the GoPro connection. It's great for the whole club. That doesn't affect your plans for next year, does it?
Craig
JasonIsley99
Well-known member
craig bryant":1bpwf1qm said:
Jamie was bummed, he wants to get back out there... With any luck that will happen in 2014. :wink:
Unless I hear different I plan to run the 99 car myself.
JasonIsley99
Well-known member
KelleyHux":3ddo4f38 said:
The window switch recall does not effect the current model, it was on the older generation - and fortunately my 2007 no longer has power windows, so it should be ok. I think the money Toyota saved pulling out of F1 should cover the recall. :ask: