Brake Rules in Prod

Whether alternate brakes are allowed should have little or nothing to do with ST cars.

ST cars (actual well-prepared national level) are allowed more lift (.600) than prod cars (.500). ST cars also can move suspension pickup points by an inch or more. Neither of these are prod legal, regardless of the conflicts in the brake rules.

Mucking with prod to let under-prepared ST cars have an easy place to go makes no sense.

If anything, prod cars should be allowed to race in ST as spec'd.
 
Chris , just to clarify , while braking a 1650 lb car with solid 9.4 " rotors and a aggressive pad is certainly possible, it is not so easy at 2065 Lbs in HP, even with vented rotors.
On my LP HP 1.8L Scirocco the best Hawk pads were easy to waste in two weekends, maybe less on tracks with long straights. Even with vented rotors and good brake cooling ducts / hoses.
We asked for years , and were refused a valid safety change to a readily available stronger front hub / bearing for the VW A1 chassis. Putting cars and drivers at serious risk. Ludicrous.
Finally someone at the SCCA put their prejudice aside and saw the light.
Sad that this happened after many were discouraged and left for other venues.
It seems way to much to depend on who is asking and what brand car they are competing with, as to what and how timely items will be granted.
The Mazda rod change is a perfect example.
Al's request for vented rotors in the same size for the A1 VW platform makes perfect sense.
Let us see if anyone is listening.
Or not.
 
Chris -

Yes, the VW community is quite good at sharing info, just bad about supporting each other's complaining. :)

To be honest I'm not sure whether the 1780 HP Scirocco can run vented discs or not. I do know that the 1588 can't and that it's one of the highest loaded axle weight/swept area of any non vented disc Prod car. Allowing vented discs that are already on other A1 chassis HP VWs sounds like a pretty reasonable request to me!

I guess I should use one of those stamps (or the email equivalent).

Al Seim
HP LP VW Scirocco 1.6
 
blamkin86":9y66u8zs said:
Whether alternate brakes are allowed should have little or nothing to do with ST cars.

ST cars (actual well-prepared national level) are allowed more lift (.600) than prod cars (.500). ST cars also can move suspension pickup points by an inch or more. Neither of these are prod legal, regardless of the conflicts in the brake rules.

Mucking with prod to let under-prepared ST cars have an easy place to go makes no sense.

If anything, prod cars should be allowed to race in ST as spec'd.
Click to expand...


Barring limited Prep cars, you can absolutely move suspension pickups in prod, that is one of those things that make sense to me and I appreciate about Prod. However in ST if you move those points you get a weight penalty, so its a strategy to determine if its really worth it vs the weight hit. ST cars are very limited in their induction systems, most Prod setups are very open, especially if you convert to Carbs (unless you are a 914 and win FP by a large margin, then you get hit with a choke penalty the following year). The lift limits appear fairly arbitrary in Prod compared to the across the board rule for ST. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just acknowledging they are different.
 
I really have no idea what you're arguing about any more.

If you bar limited prep cars, you pretty much bar 75-90% of the cars running.

Are you building a full-prep honda? If not, then you're arguing against yourself.

I think I'm done here. :)
 
blamkin86":1hzto182 said:
I really have no idea what you're arguing about any more.

If you bar limited prep cars, you pretty much bar 75-90% of the cars running.

Are you building a full-prep honda? If not, then you're arguing against yourself.

I think I'm done here. :)
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing, per say. :lol:

Yes I am building a full prep car. I have moved suspension mounting points, built custom trailing arms, control arms, etc. So this minor side discussion does apply to me.

What is the break down of full prep vs limited prep in PROD as far as overall participation?
 
If the new cars and the old cars are weighted according to HP /pound, than maybe some correction for brakes should be considered. Maybe just add vented rotors of X size per class.

The new cars have better brakes as times have progressed.
 
HP Fiat X1/9s weigh between 1695 and 2115 lbs on non-vented 9" discs and we have no vented swap-in.
 
Bob -

FWD cars have the majority of the weight in the front and transfer more on under braking, it's safe I think to assume that 75% or so of the weight is on the front under 1g braking. Mid engine RWD cars have most of the weight on the rear but transfer it forward under braking so I'd guess more like 50-50 under braking.

So I win the woe-is-me contest! :)

Al
 
Al Seim":1sr623xz said:
Bob -

FWD cars have the majority of the weight in the front and transfer more on under braking, it's safe I think to assume that 95% or so of the weight is on the front under 1g braking. Mid engine RWD cars have most of the weight on the rear but transfer it forward under braking so I'd guess more like 50-50 under braking.

So I win the woe-is-me contest! :)

Al
Click to expand...

Edited ... ;-)
 
Ogren can probably also verify that.. At NOLA, his kid came in MISSING a left rear caliper.. "The pedal was a bit soft but it stopped fine.."

Uhhh WHAT?!
 
I guess I missed on getting my point across

None of us have the brakes (or HP/torque) we want but racing is about managing what you have to get the maximum

It is Racecraft gentlemen

FWIW - To guarantee equal brakes (or HP) then SRF/FE have that
 
FIAT90FP":10kq3jz8 said:
I guess I missed on getting my point across

None of us have the brakes (or HP/torque) we want but racing is about managing what you have to get the maximum

It is Racecraft gentlemen

FWIW - To guarantee equal brakes (or HP) then SRF/FE have that
Click to expand...
Well stated
 
FIAT90FP":29raxgce said:
I guess I missed on getting my point across

None of us have the brakes (or HP/torque) we want but racing is about managing what you have to get the maximum

It is Racecraft gentlemen

FWIW - To guarantee equal brakes (or HP) then SRF/FE have that
Click to expand...


Why should a safety item like brakes be one the things that you have to manage? I get that your engine may not make as much top end as the next guy, that maybe your gear ratios aren't as good, maybe your car isn't as aerodynamically efficient as the newer cars, those are all things you should have to manage. The fact that your brakes are melting halfway through a session should never be something you have to manage. Are Prod cars race cars or showroom stock cars?

Can anyone honestly say the racing wouldn't be closer and more competitive if everyone had brakes up to the task of racing, hard?

How about this?

For HP brakes are limited to ferrous 10.5in rotor and a production or maximum four piston caliper. (this keeps you from having to go to new wheels should the calipers not work with your wheels, but you could run a larger rotor caliper setup.

For FP brakes are limited to a ferrous 12in rotor and a production or maximum four piston caliper.

For EP brakes are limited to a ferrous 13in rotor and a production or maximum four piston caliper.

Then if necessary add a cost cap on top to limit the cost of calipers and rotors. This allows competitors to upgrade front rotor and calipers to ensure no one is running out of brakes halfway through a session but doesn't require someone to instantly pick the most expensive option to remain competitive.

If you look through the rules certain cars are allowed brake upgrades (I assume because a competitor pushed for a change). How many other cars haven't benefited from those same upgrade options. Al and Chris mentioned the VW that is suffering with a tiny solid front rotor in HP yet the Datsun 510 gets to upgrade to Z car brakes? Lets level the playing field for everyone not just those good at club politics.
 
How would you enforce the cost cap? Is it the money you actually spent? MSRP? Wholesale? What if you bought used parts? Or fabricated your own from scrap?
 
Simple, if you want big brakes then race GT.... The cars are currently classed with the understanding that brakes are factor.
 
hpmowog":2tbj2dik said:
How would you enforce the cost cap? Is it the money you actually spent? MSRP? Wholesale? What if you bought used parts? Or fabricated your own from scrap?
Click to expand...

I would probably treat it just like Chump and Lemons do. Present several legitimate suppliers with an average cost. Or use a Manufactures Suggested Retail Price. The cost cap shouldn't be too hard to enforce. You would keep the documentation with the other OE documentation you bring to the track. I suspect it wouldn't be a huge source of protests. so maybe the tech inspection after a race pics that because its easy to check? I wonder how TA2 does it since I got the idea from their section of the GCR. It doesn't matter what you spent, its what you could reasonably purchase the parts. Remember the idea only covers the costs of two specific parts, the calipers and rotors.

For example, lets say you decided to use OE brake calipers and a larger rotor. Everyone in impound can see what you used by simply looking at the calipers and rotors. Should a tech inspector question your costs, you have to present a few current price listings. No big deal. Remember we aren't talking about guys showing up with AP F1 calipers, that won't be this market. You will see guys showing up with Corrado 11in rotors and a Wilwood Superlite, Outlaw four pot, stock floating caliper, etc. Or the Honda guys will show up with ITR brakes, the Datsun guys ZX calipers and rotors, etc.

I'm just presenting a feasible proposal.
 
I can see allowing non vented to use vented of the same size or 110% of stock size. That would even up the old vs new cars. IMHO. The caliper size is not a big deal , just a 2 pot would make the pads last a bit longer due to better control of piston angle.
I dont know of any real issues of getting 40 min from a set of pads. Maybe a non vented VW on the Sebring short course at FP power..
Chump really has no rule for brakes..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top