Another Letter to the CRB on H Production Parity

I would agree that the original H/P cars have been the most affected by the class consolidation. But there have been racers in every remaining class and some that don't race any more that have been make obsolete by the short sighted moves of the BOD. It isn't just a H problem and I think Daytona will really bring that out.
 
I do agree with Larry on one point. No one wants to go slower. The issue with the Spridgets is lack of horsepower. My request to the Comp Board was for specific motor improvements for all the HP Spridgets not all BLMI cars.

We have owned both top notch Spitfires and Midgets and I can tell you that a Spridget driver is at a great disadvantage to a Spitfire when both cars are driven by great drivers and prepared to the max within the rules. Why? The Spitfire has a wider track, a longer wheel base, a better breathing motor with more intake/exhaust ports, a better aero body and a better rear suspension. CRB...STOP combining Spridgets with Triumphs when you are handing out adjustments. Steve Sargis is a great driver and developer of his cars. Steve would be the first to say that he is NOT Superman. He has proven what the Spitfire in HP is capable of. Ron Bartell also is a great driver and he too has proven what the Spridget in Hp is capable of. The results prove that there is a disparity between the Spit and Spridgets. As Ron pointed out both Steve and my son James, driving Spitfires, have proven at RA that we were 4 to 5 mph faster than arguably the best HP Spridget in the country.

The hardest thing to do is to say you are wrong however it is also a very admirable thing to do. CRB...either recind your recent Tech Bulliten changes and adopt power improvements to the Spridgets OR, even better, recognize what all the racers are telling you, that the ex-GP cars are impossible to equalize in HP, and bring back GP. Tell both classes if they do not make the numbers...they are gone! I really doubt that the Hondas, Toyotas and VW's will agree because they have found a great feeding ground in HP as the current HP cars are spec'd. While adding weight to the newer cars might seem the easiest way to better equalize the HP class, in reality it is not fixing the problem. A Toyota, Honda or VW will still win the RunOffs but the extra weight will further stress the suspension and especially the brakes. Is that really what you Comp Board folks want. Do you really want to try and equalize the HP field by putting some cars and drivers in harms way with overstressed suspension and brakes???

Best solution...As I said, no one wants to go slower. Move the Hondas, Toyotas and VW's to FP. Larry said they are currently carrying 275 something extra pounds. Well wonder what they would do in F with 275 pounds less weight and some power adjustments?? In doing so, if H did not make the numbers, they would be gone but at least they would not be spec'd out.
 
Weight will slow the cars down. simple as that. If the estimated weight is wrong then there is a simple cheap solution. Put more in or take some out. The simulation programs work with weight very well. Not so much with changing Hp through compression and or RPM.
No body wants to be the test pig and change pistons after racing the cars for 10 yrs. We all have piston/compression and cams established and any change is costly.
There is going to be pissed off racers anytime that they are forced to slow down. Move on .
Again, IMHO, our Prod board job 1 is to make sure that new cars dont overnight obsolete the 110 % build old cars.
 
I was hoping for a more creative solution than weight. These changes just make the cars race even more differently.

FACT: Roadsters and tin tops do not race well together. This is not a new concept.
FACT: It's easier to pass when you drive a high-powered tin top. Simply power by on the straights.
FACT: HP needs newer cars.
FACT: New cars make a lot of power compared to even the "fast" HP tin tops.
MAYBE: It's time to look at ways to restrict power on the fast cars (SIR/plate)...coupled with speeding up the low-powered cars in HP (a little more cam, a little more compression for the LP cars). Make the tin tops as light as they want to be, but cut power accordingly. This will make them perform MORE LIKE a roadster...fun to drive, cheap to operate.
ALSO: It's time to openly release the class from the performance of the 948 Sprite. There are other engine options that can make more power. Sorry, time to move on. It can't get lighter, it can't make more power. If it can make more power, let them have it.

Not sure why we are so afraid of some form of air restriction in Prod. For crying out loud, they are used all over the place in and out of SCCA. Prod is begging for it...our cars are so disparate, yet we try to do it all with weight and engine mods. Heck, for cars with Webers, we already use chokes as a restrictor!
 
Tom Feller":1icxkaw9 said:
I was hoping for a more creative solution than weight. These changes just make the cars race even more differently.

FACT: Roadsters and tin tops do not race well together. This is not a new concept.
FACT: It's easier to pass when you drive a high-powered tin top. Simply power by on the straights.
FACT: HP needs newer cars.
FACT: New cars make a lot of power compared to even the "fast" HP tin tops.
MAYBE: It's time to look at ways to restrict power on the fast cars (SIR/plate)...coupled with speeding up the low-powered cars in HP (a little more cam, a little more compression for the LP cars). Make the tin tops as light as they want to be, but cut power accordingly. This will make them perform MORE LIKE a roadster...fun to drive, cheap to operate.
ALSO: It's time to openly release the class from the performance of the 948 Sprite. There are other engine options that can make more power. Sorry, time to move on. It can't get lighter, it can't make more power. If it can make more power, let them have it.

Not sure why we are so afraid of some form of air restriction in Prod. For crying out loud, they are used all over the place in and out of SCCA. Prod is begging for it...our cars are so disparate, yet we try to do it all with weight and engine mods. Heck, for cars with Webers, we already use chokes as a restrictor!
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FACT: Many newer cars will never get within 500lbs of the roadsters, there are crash standards in place that have porked the cars up over the years - its not like the good old days of wooden frames. :wink:
FACT: Nearly every newer car that can fit in the HP framework is going to be FWD.
FACT: No matter what you try to implement, a fat FWD hatchback will never race like a roadster.
MAYBE: Its time to add 500lbs to the LBC and let them have more power. I'm sure the 8" solid brake rotors can handle it. :wink:
 
Move on??? We have moved on. When 100lbs was added. Then another 175lbs mid-season. Then we were told how happy they were with the racing in H at RA. Then we go to MLS and win another 100lbs.

Adding wieght is not the answer. Obviously it will slow you down. But dramatically effects braking distances and tire wear. Closing speeds were brought up. Hope you dont total your car when us 2300lb cars have to brake at the 5 when you expect to brake at the 2.

Arrogant? Clearly you don't me at all.

I'll take a challenge any day. You don't think it was a challenge to race on the same tires you had with 5-700lbs more than you? It was a challenge in E when I was told "wrong wheel drive" would never win in EP. Guess, what? We got reward weight too. Sold the car. Couple years later, the weight was removed. We've taken several different cars and classes and figured out to get them to the front. Its fact, not arrogance. Is it arrogance because I had to remind you? I don't care what car or class. I don't want a overdog car. But I will pick a car that I believe is capable of winning before I build it. You cant blame me for that. I don't think my car is/was a overdog car compared to the other cars I battled with at RA or MLS. Sorry your car wasn't part of the mix.

1.5L, 2 injectors, 42mm throttle body, 13x6 wheels at 2229lbs.... An overdog. :roll:

My car being classed wrong? Nobody should forget why they were consolidated... And just like now... There aren't enough LBC's in the country, wanting to race H, to have their own class. So maybe, its YOUR car that's classed wrong. And you should be lobbying to get adjustments made to YOUR car. Instead of punishing people who are racing just like you. And to be so selfish and not think about the future of the class and structuring it to welcome more cars in... Cars being built today. B-Spec cars etc. And most importantly, showing the instability of the rules in the class. Great, lets tell em... Go work your ass off to win the runoffs... So you too can have a bunch of weight added to your car. Man, that sounds appealing.

Mistake they consolidated the two classes? Maybe. But keep in mind, our team or I, had NOTHING to do with it.

And go ahead, try to discredit my character, again, you must not know me or care about me if you take that tact. So therefore, I don't care about you either. At the end of the day, we'll keep doing what we do. Because this forum and many forums, is just like this. When good points, facts are brought up, a forum posse jumps you. And most racers in prod, don't even come to this forum. And if they do, they're scared to type anything because of this. And most don't write to the CRB. And unfortunately, the squeaky wheel gets the oil and why comp adjustments like this are made.

As for FP, we have a classification in FP for the CRX. We've been working on it. You'll see it soon. But thanks for the idea to leave H-Prod and opening the door to push us out. Soon you guys will be right back where we started... With not enough cars to go to the runoffs.
 
Lawrence - You know as well as I do that your car was an overdog when it was brought into H. Your team, to their credit, told the CRB they were crazy to bring the G cars into H without adjusting the weight more than they did, and when they didn't take your team's advice, set out to prove them wrong - which they did in spades. You absolutely have the best prepared cars and you personally are a great driver. No question about it. I respect your effort and ability. The fact that you don't respect others effort and ability is noticed by more people than you realize and they definitely view you as arrogant. I have the PM's to prove it. I don't know you well enough to know whether you are or not.

My advice to you is to sit back with a big smile on your face and let them bring anything they want to try to slow you down. As long as they apply the same medicine to all of the fast cars you will always end up on top because you do have a very good program. They would almost have to give us full F Production specs before we are going to give you any trouble at tracks like RA and Daytona. We might have a chance at Mid Ohio next year, but even that is doubtful based on what I saw at MRLS. So of course when you blow a whole contingent of cars into the weeds you get weight. And you continue to get it until some of those cars can keep you in sight for a lap or two. Get used to it, and look at it as a badge of honor. You will still be on top. Heck, when a car wins with three different drivers there is by definition something in need of correction.
 
I respect many drivers, builders and people in the racing community. Actually most. Because that's where I learned everything and continue to learn how to go faster... Behind the wheel and behind the wrench.

There's many life lessons, haters going to hate is one of them. I've been labeled a cheater and all sorts of sticks and stones. I'm a big boy, I can take it.

I'll take my lead of honor.

Guys like you, who know they've developed their cars to the limit, have merit. But we've all seen many cars that are not. Or just because they have a high dollar motor and a really nice cage... Is far from a fully developed car. Even once there's no part to be purchased or improved. There's so much in setup and interpolating data and temps, but again, a guy like you understands that. Actually, many do... But how to do it and what to do with it, is the black art. For example, in F1000, not a single part was changed on our car from the cat to the runoffs, just setup. And just because we were finally able to hit the sweet spot, almost 4 seconds off of our lap time. But that's an aero car.

The example you brought up about when the car was initially introduced into H by the Mellers, it was 1900lbs.

3 different drivers, yes... But all from our camp, all excellent drivers with the same guys prepping and setting the car up. Its not just the car, or the driver, or the team... It's the combo. There's no way I would have done it without my teammates.

We didn't run away from anything at RA. It was a close race the past 3 years. Only a handful of the same cars/drivers went to MLS.

Its not the Honda, its not the Yaris. Its trying to mold the speed of the class around cars that aren't produced anymore.

But above all, thanks for your time to comment and calm me down Ron, much appreciated.
 
Jason, while I'm glad to see them participating, I don't view cars like the Yaris as popular cars in HP. That means they need to fit into the performance parameters of the class, not define them.

If we do equalize with SIRs, then everyone can run light.
 
What incentive do I, as a "Tin Top" owner have to join the HP ranks if all I read about is slowing down the "Tin Tops"?
I'm currently running in ITB and have run it in HP also but would like to go faster. That means spending the money to make it fast enough to keep up. At this point, I don't see a point in doing so if every year you guys concentrate on slowing down the "new" cars instead of making the "old" cars faster.
Where I race, our race group includes EP, FP, HP and GTL. Do we really need to have slower cars in such a run group?
 
I'm saying put an appropriate restrictor on cars that need it, but lighten the weight considerably. Do that, coupled with maybe some things to make the Level 2 roadsters faster power-wise. Then the tin tops will handle better but not be as fast in a straight line. Ultimate lap times would be about the same as they are now. Tires and brakes would last longer. Racing would be "better."

I guess I would be resistant too if I had a tin top. It would be nice to keep passing pesky roadsters on the straights and at the green flag. :ask:
 
SPEEDSHAK" And most importantly said:
Lawrence, I'm tired of hearing the "rules stability" argument because I worked hard when I was on the committee to keep the rules stable and it seems to be continuing. The rules in Prod have been VERY stable over the past decade+...much more so than most production-based classes. Alternate rods is the largest upset to stability in a LONG time and it took an act of Congress to get it. You want unstable, look at Touring or ASedan.

Adjusting weights is tuning the classification of the car. If you don't do it, you have IT, where there is one model that is dominant. Even you have to admit that the CRX at 1900 lbs is an overdog, but everyone said that intake was an insurmountable roadblock. Oh my God, was that thing a POS when we initially classed the car...so we were told...why would anyone even build one? Then we based the Fit and the Yaris weight off of the CRX classification because they're running 1.5 liter engines that were similarly built for MPG. If you can figure out the insurmountable intake, you can manage to make the car work with more weight. It probably helped balance the chassis...to a point.

One more point: most winners don't get HAMMERED with weight like the CRX did. It got hammered because we missed the classification at 1900 lbs so grossly. It was a new car..uncharted territory, and that intake was supposed to effectively be a restrictor. You don't see lead trophies that big very often (ever?), so don't act like it's a regular thing...the IT guys already think it's worse than it is.
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The CRX is not the HP car you have to worry about from that camp in 2015.

A14 full prep. Chassis full prep. 240Z brakes. dual side draft on IR manifold, 30mm chokes, 5 speed, 13x7 wheel, 2050 lb.
 
It also worth mentioning the, "the moment in time competition adjustment". Anyone who has been around this for awhile has seen this, you get the perfect storm, a well developed car, prepped wonderfully, driven wonderfully, and you have success. We saw it with the 914 and it's FP win at MO, throw more money at the car than God has, put a pro driver in it, and you are good enough to even play cat and mouse with the likes of Sargis, then you take your wonder toy and God's gift to asphalt driver and slither away and the rest of the 914 guys were left to suffer the fate of it all. I also remember when the HP LP 1296 Spitfire guys went to bat for the LP 1275 Midget guys, only to have it almost haunt them with the LP 1275 Midget at Kansas. I can also see where over the years the FP Midget has been on a roller coaster of comp adjustments and dings, as efforts came, and went. There are tons of examples of this in prod racing over time.

We like to think it is all about the car in a generic sense, but it is far from that, it is still about the people involved, and their efforts. I don't care who you think you are, or how developed you think your car is, you put that formula in the right hands, and they can take it to a place you thought didn't exist. Anyone here that thinks there is no more room to be better is kidding themselves. I know that doesn't address the issues of equality, but that's the point, the target is always moving, and always will be.

I'm not the least surprised that Lawrence and Jason dominated HP this year, I would have been more shocked, had they not. You work your ass off, and sometimes it pays off. Kudos to those two for a job well done.
 
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!!

That is your 2015 Daytona car for sure.

I wonder why that looks a lot like a Cobra Daytona Coupe?

Bryan Floyd
 
I predict that an old Twin carb dark horse will win Daytona. The Toy 2TC, the Datsun or the VW. They have very good Intake sq mm vs drag.


Ralf your ITB car is not competitive in IT but can be a top third car built to HP specs.
 
First I want to say I have a lot of respect for Lawrence Loshak. I think he is a very professional and focused racer and always cordial when I have talked to him. His passion for winning is obvious and he does it with exceptional driving and car preparation rather than banging or running people off the track. My focus is to do the best I can and beat the best. Right now that is Loshak and the Hyperformance crew. They have taken a package and perfected it, good for them. I want to do the same.

What drives me nuts is how incongruous this crowd is. When Sargis, in his British roadster was doing 39’s at RA and was 2 to 4 seconds a lap faster than anyone on any track, that was wonderful that such a good guy (and he is, no question) and that wonderful British roadster DOMINATES in such a fine fashion. His reward? 50 lbs at the end of the season which has now been rescinded. The CRX wins 3 Runoffs doing 41’s to 43’s (as weight is added) and it is the scourge of racing. It seems that any car that is not a British roadster sucks.

There is no parity in racing. There is no parity in life. Every class gets faster and faster each year. Even in the “spec” classes there is significant time differences from the class leaders back.. it comes down to preparation and talent. Enough with slowing the other guy down. Ask for what you need to make yourself faster!! of course that may mean you will have to spend money, do things different - join the club.

Ultimately I see this pursuit of the “parity folly” to be the end of H Prod. Who wants to mess with this. Cars will drop out, it won’t be attractive to come in. H will be consolidated with another class. We have ourselves to blame.
 
Bill Trainer":1gnuzbf3 said:
Ultimately I see this pursuit of the “parity folly” to be the end of H Prod. Who wants to mess with this. Cars will drop out, it won’t be attractive to come in. H will be consolidated with another class. We have ourselves to blame.
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Exactly what I was getting at in my post earlier. :applause:

Take a look at the track record file. If the "new", previous GP cars are so much faster then the "old" HP cars, how come MGB's, Sprites and Spitfires still own most of the track records?
 
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