Sorry I missed the F/P race

J Prather wrote:
" I hate to see someone like you spew your BS on this forum to try and hurt production. Don't you have something better to do?"

I don't have the time to read all the notes on this but this caught my eye. "someone LIKE you" and" he drives it way better than you or any of your buddies drive your cars." Where do you come off talking to anybody like that, Jesse ? And as far as BS, after all the sneaky self-serving BS you pulled while on the ad-hoc with respect to the lotus and midgets you have not the right to publicly criticize anyone. You are not worth having a conversation with.

watch out everyone, to question a Miada is to hurt production.

Rick Haynes
 
All,

To me it seems that the discontent here is down to the rule set and the class philosophy in Production. Trying to equalize cars that have fundamentally different performance dynamics at all times on all tracks doesn't seem like a path to fun, harmonious and hard racing where the best rise to the top and there's no excuses for the folks who aren't quick enough.

Everyone seems to want special dispensation for their chosen car and given the class philosphy, that's not really a surprise, is it?

I'd far rather be involved with a group of guys who share a passion for the sport, improving their cars and having a post-race beer than racing against somone who wouldn't talk to to me on the podium because he (or she!) thought I had better brakes, a bigger carb or some other unfair, but legal advantage.

Is anyone in the Prod community willing to have a constructive conversation about a real rules change that would provide close racing, bigger grids ultimately lower costs and fun times for all?
 
OK, here's my idea in it's simply form. First admit that an overhead cam is better than pushrods and that two overhead cams are better than one. If you can agree on that then come up with an adjustment factor. I will use the term equivalent displacement. For a pushrod motor the equiv. displacement equals 95% of actual displacement. For a single overhead cam motor it's 100% and for a twin cam motor it's 105%. For examples a 1800cc VW motor has a equivalent displacement of 1800CC. A 1275 Sprite motor 1275ccx95%=1211cc. A 1600cc twin cam 1600x105%=1680cc. Now divide into three classes based on equivalent displacements. GP is less than 1500cc, FP is 1501-1999cc, EP is 2000cc-2500cc. Now make the weight dependent on displacement. For example GP full prep is 1.1lbs/cc and GP limited prep is 1.35lbs/cc. Do the same for FP and EP. So at this point you have a "blind" set of rules that doesn't care what kind of car you drive. If you don't like my numbers then use different numbers, change the dividing points (displacement) between classes. Doesn't matter to me. Just create a set of rules that applies equally to all cars.
 
Now you're talking Gary. The prod advisory committee did this and also added in factors such as fwd vs rwd, irs vs live axle, etc. The problem are the unknowns especially with how newer car engines perform in lp form. The full prep 1275 is an amazing piece considering how well they perform for the displacement. Some people would also say that there isn't another modern engine that has more potential than the Honda's. It's a tough job especially when you throw in all of the different tracks we run at.
By the way, I apologize for my flaming earlier, it does no good for anyone.
 
Jesse,
Apology accepted. Now here is a question. I think you prepare Eric's car and that you also prepared his Lotus. And I agree that Eric is a very good driver, who has more experience in his Lotus than his Miata at this point. Yet Eric's times are faster in the Miata. So doesn't that show a performance discrepency between the two cars? One needs to be slowed down or one needs to be speeded up. And since for the last four years at the Runoffs the Lotus 7 has been faster than the MIdget/Sprite doesn't it also need an adjustment?
 
Yes, after occasionally lurking on this forum for the last 5 years, I have joined just so that I could post a reply on this thread.

It appalls me to see how some (thankfully a very few) people on this forum abuse people like Prather, Ruck and others on the adhoc committee after all they have done, and continue to do, in spite of this abuse, to make the Production Classes better and stronger.

How anyone can say that the Production classes are slanted and skewed and not parity is laughable after the races we just witnessed at the runoffs.

EP => top 3 are different MANUFACTURERS and 7 of the top 8 are different car classifications
FP => top 5 cars are different MANUFACTURERS
HP => 7 of the top 10 are different MANUFACTURERS

Since I know him, I can only imagine how pissed off Prather had to be in order to get him to say what he did AND I DON’T BLAME HIM.

J Prather wrote:
" I hate to see someone like you spew your BS on this forum to try and hurt production. Don't you have something better to do?"

I know exactly what he is saying. These GP/Spridget types are only here over and over again with the same sad tale and sole purpose of HURTING Production. And why the rest of you who love the Production classes like I do, let them get away with it, is beyond me.

Do they have something better to do? It sure isn’t working on their cars, or getting to be better drivers, or trying to help the club get better. You could give them all supercharged V8s to install in those cars and they would still be back markers.

Sorry, I’m just saying what most of you are thinking.
 
racingspridget":2rr1kif8 said:
Eric's times are faster in the Miata.
Click to expand...

Eric was faster two years ago at High Plains Raceway in his lotus, than he was *this year* in his Miata.
 
rrbadger":21f1u9r9 said:
Yes, after occasionally lurking on this forum for the last 5 years, I have joined just so that I could post a reply on this thread.

It appalls me to see how some (thankfully a very few) people on this forum abuse people like Prather, Ruck and others on the adhoc committee after all they have done, and continue to do, in spite of this abuse, to make the Production Classes better and stronger.

How anyone can say that the Production classes are slanted and skewed and not parity is laughable after the races we just witnessed at the runoffs.

EP => top 3 are different MANUFACTURERS and 7 of the top 8 are different car classifications
FP => top 5 cars are different MANUFACTURERS
HP => 7 of the top 10 are different MANUFACTURERS

Since I know him, I can only imagine how pissed off Prather had to be in order to get him to say what he did AND I DON’T BLAME HIM.

J Prather wrote:
" I hate to see someone like you spew your BS on this forum to try and hurt production. Don't you have something better to do?"

I know exactly what he is saying. These GP/Spridget types are only here over and over again with the same sad tale and sole purpose of HURTING Production. And why the rest of you who love the Production classes like I do, let them get away with it, is beyond me.

Do they have something better to do? It sure isn’t working on their cars, or getting to be better drivers, or trying to help the club get better. You could give them all supercharged V8s to install in those cars and they would still be back markers.

Sorry, I’m just saying what most of you are thinking.
Click to expand...
I agree with much of what you say but you crossed the line with your stereo typical "GP/Spridget types" comment. Throwing people into a category does nothing for your argument and is for the most part untrue.
 
rrbadger":3m10tgme said:
........These GP/Spridget types are only here over and over again with the same sad tale and sole purpose of HURTING Production. ........... It sure isn’t working on their cars, or getting to be better drivers, or trying to help the club get better. You could give them all supercharged V8s to install in those cars and they would still be back markers.
Click to expand...
How about putting a name with your post when you come up with these inflamatory statements? I'd like to know what perspective you have to be making such statements which are quite frankly insulting.

There may be a few winers that couldn't win with a V8 but by making a blanket statement you are including at least 6 previous national champions that either don't come to the Runoffs any more or attend but have no chance of winning after previously winning multiple times. I think that they have not only proved that they can drive but also know how to prepare a winning car.

The track is not suited for that car and the CRB isn't willing to make a correction for RA that would make the car an overdog at other tracks, but don't give me that crap that they don't work on their cars or aren't good enough drivers.

Go back to lurking.
 
Gary, actually if you look at all other tracks but elkhart Eric was at least as fast in the lotus. The lotus was Eric's dad's car and I'm not going to speak for him but Mazda puts out quite a program compared to Lotus, at least outside of F1. The Miata in FP does everything good meaning it can perform at all tracks well. Some of the other cars in the class favor one track or another. That is because they are full prep and tweaked to the max. Let's not forget tha :D t lp saved production in general when it comes to car count. I'd agree that a runoffs only classification would be best but, who's going to do this? Who's got the time? You can't take a shot in the dark. It's unfortunate that elkhart isn't the best for equality between production cars but I also heard complaints about Heartland Park which favors handling. Double edged sword. This will always be the debate but, I'm glad to say that in FP, you will see a professionally prepared Miata because I've taken it upon myself to see it done. I'd compare it to what Huffaker did with the Midget, the unfair advantage of sorts based upon lots of good driver input and testing in a professional manner. The classification was there long before I started with the cars, I'd just like to think it's been taken to the next level. We're still trying to keep up with Sargis!
 
Prediction..... If rules remain the same, there are a lot of 1530 pound Lotus 7's waiting for the RunOffs to move. As to FP Midgets vs Ex EP Lotus.....1500cc, 1530 pounds, twin Webers, 8 port head vs 1275cc, 1630 pounds, twin SU's, 5 port head. I never understood that one.....More torque, more HP, 100 pound less weight, better fuel delivery and better cylinder head design. Aero a problem?? Check out trap speeds.
 
Will MR "rrbadger" please post his racing record for all to see. I would like to see what's behind his vast well of racing knowledge.
 
RICK HAYNES":1obfyxgk said:
Will MR "rrbadger" please post his racing record for all to see. I would like to see what's behind his vast well of racing knowledge.
Click to expand...
I'm guessing a Wisconsin local who watches races but doesn't even race at all. Maybe someone already knows him but I'm thinking that he won't have the sack to post again.

For those new arrivals on this forum, unlike some others, we have a policy of either using your real name or signing your posts so that others know who you are.
 
rrbadger":3cpcqaf0 said:
I know exactly what he is saying. These GP/Spridget types are only here over and over again with the same sad tale and sole purpose of HURTING Production. And why the rest of you who love the Production classes like I do, let them get away with it, is beyond me.

Do they have something better to do? It sure isn’t working on their cars, or getting to be better drivers, or trying to help the club get better. You could give them all supercharged V8s to install in those cars and they would still be back markers.

Sorry, I’m just saying what most of you are thinking.
Click to expand...

Here, as one of those "GP" types, Ill go first. FLR Mechanic of the year, FLR Driver of the year (multiple winner), Past FLR Competition board member, Former Production ADHOC member, Driving instructor FLR, Chairman ADHOC sub-committee for PCS rewrite, 8 straight Northeast division GP titles, 40 national wins, multiple track records, 4 straight Runoff podium finishes, 2 Runoffs poles, 2004 GP National champion, STAUNCH supporter of production racing! Crewing next weekend for a new driver, as well as a national competitor preparing for Runoff run next year. My components were run by the top 3 qualifiers in FP and both the champions in EP and FP, as well as the 2nd place finisher in GT2.
So, if your criteria is ability to work on a car, drive a car, or help production? I think I got YA covered. I will never apoligize for pointing out the firm screwing I took at the hands of the SCCA BOD. If it is your stance ("Sad Tale") that I just forget about it and move on, thats fine. I won't, but I wouldn't expect you to understand if you weren't a GP competitor. That said, I sure as shit am not going to take anybody trying to correlate my comments with the inability to prep, drive, or support Production racing.
You and everybody else who dismisses the likes of Ron Bartell, Rick Haynes, Craig Chima, and Harold Fleischer as Whiners, do so at their own peril. The plight of the LBC and GP competitors will eventually be your own. You may not think you have a dog in this hunt, but eventually it will be you with the "sad tale" of exclusion and uncompetiveness.
 
racingspridget":2jzi13hk said:
. Yet Eric's times are faster in the Miata.
Click to expand...

Prill, Me, and Harris have all tried to match his Lotus times at Hallett the last couple of years. No luck yet, so more development needed. :mrgreen:
 
S. Henry":19lekmbf said:
racingspridget":19lekmbf said:
. Yet Eric's times are faster in the Miata.
Click to expand...

Prill, Me, and Harris have all tried to match his Lotus times at Hallett the last couple of years. No luck yet, so more development needed. :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Sam

Does that mean more or less follow the leader grass driving next year?
 
RonInSD":2nahufov said:
S. Henry":2nahufov said:
racingspridget":2nahufov said:
. Yet Eric's times are faster in the Miata.
Click to expand...

Prill, Me, and Harris have all tried to match his Lotus times at Hallett the last couple of years. No luck yet, so more development needed. :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Sam

Does that mean more or less follow the leader grass driving next year?
Click to expand...


rumors of us going to john deere green/yellow schemes with turf tires are greatly exaggerated...
 
S. Henry":3gzkruov said:
rumors of us going to john deere green/yellow schemes with turf tires are greatly exaggerated...
Click to expand...
Says he who is defending his Rallycross National Championship this weekend ... hmmmm ....

Kelley Huxtable
"PLAY SAFE"
DMVR
 
I had the great opportunity of becoming a spectator so naturally I was most interested in watching the FP qualifying. I think it was during the 3rd qualifying session when we were roosted in the bleachers on the outside of turn 7 that our rally cross champion stirred up dirt going down to 8 while being pushed off the track while 3 wide. I don't have DA but I suspect that was at 100 MPH +

Mr. Sam, do you care to post the video of that. I was telling you not to go to the right of those two H cars but you didnt' listen. :)
 
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