Sorry I missed the F/P race

So the fastest FP race speeds were recorded by the winning (again) LBC that races at exactly the same weight, with exactly the same engine as the FP Spridget? Perhaps the amazing Superman himself should be blamed, instead of the CRB and Mazda, for the way Spridgets are classed in FP. If Bartel or Sargis raced Alfas they would probably move me to EP at the HP spec! :D
 
OK Curtis, so the 1500 Midget is the same weight as the 1500 Spit. Are there ANY Spridget racers out there that would choose to develop a Triumph 1500 for the Spridget? ANY?

FP Spridgets run 1275s and they are 1630 lbs. We took 50 lbs off recently. Even though they have a "superior" option to run the "modern" 8 port Triumph 1500, no one chooses that combo.

Yes, it should be lighter than the Spit though.
 
I've thought about this too.

So if you take Sargis, his prep level, his development, engine and transmission and put them in a Midget, would he do the same thing in a Midget that he did in his Spitfire?

What gear ratio is he running? Anybody know?
 
Runoffs just ended and the winter silly season is in high gear.

Just have to wonder out loud if the guy running 2.47's, in what is reported to be a very well developed car, is a race car driver, of just a guy who drives race cars. If you are going to be at the sharp end of the field you have to be willing to write the car off if you make a mistake at speed, some guys just are not willing to pay that price, are not capable of making that comitment, or just don't have the brass. I would like to see trap speeds entering and exiting the kink as well as turn 7. Seems to me that many guys just choose to be conservative in those corners, and those are corners where you can here the front of the field going CLANG CLANG CLANG as they turn in.
 
So I have never been to the runoffs as a Competitor but I have been going since the mid 70's as crew many times and as a spectator.

I have been racing since 1993 and running a Prod car for a few years regionally and got caught up in the GP crap. I will have to say that what I have read in this thread and the reception that I received at the runoffs this year really makes me sad to say that I have been a member and Competitor in the SCCA since 1987 officially. It really makes me stop and wonder why in the hell I am actually building a NEW Production car.

I really hope that folks don't stumble up on this site and use it to form an impression of OUR?? club.
 
As I said in my earlier post....Glen Cameron readily admits he leaves something on the table in the driving department. So lets look at Harold Fletcher. He and his car are as developed as any Midget/Sprite in the country. Can we agree on that point? Now look at his times versus the fast lap times from every Runoffs at RA. The closest he ever got was 4.4seconds off the pole. The worst year he was 9.6 seconds off. And I think 2010 demonstates his willingness to drive at or beyond the car's limit.
 
racingspridget":2mzhlogp said:
As I said in my earlier post....Glen Cameron readily admits he leaves something on the table in the driving department. So lets look at Harold Fletcher. He and his car are as developed as any Midget/Sprite in the country. Can we agree on that point? Now look at his times versus the fast lap times from every Runoffs at RA. The closest he ever got was 4.4seconds off the pole. The worst year he was 9.6 seconds off. And I think 2010 demonstates his willingness to drive at or beyond the car's limit.

I am not familiar with Harold, how does he fair in the nationals that he enters? There are many guys that are world beaters in class until they get to the runoffs, then the level of competition increases and you need to have your "A GAME" at all times; even then it may not be enough.

Take the miata out of the mix in fp and the car count is not great. Want to know why I race a Mazda product? 1st I love the miata, 2nd and more importantly, MazdaSpeed support, I couldn't do it without their help. Finally, limited prep engine that allows me to run one engine for the entire season. Did I say one engine? Yes one engine, no mule engine to get me to the runoffs, then put in the "big bullet", and hope for the best. By the way, the "runoffs" engine is not new to the class since the miata has been allowed, it is a common practice of guys that run full prep stuff. I can't afford that and as such wouldn't be racing if I couldn't do it with a limited prep engine. So with the miata I get to run a very cost effective, competitive car, I doubt cost effective is a term that can be used when describing the midget/sprite.

I am not a historian and don't know who did what for the past 20 years or even the past 5 years at the runoffs, but perhaps RA is just not the right track for the midget/sprite, or maybe the fast guys are just running different cars. Sargis sure looks good in his spit and the one thing I have heard over and over about him is how fast he is.....I could continue but we all know guys that are fast and can take less of a car and drive it to a track record while there are guys that can take the most prepped car around and make it look like a boat anchor
 
little bill":27o7abky said:
I am not familiar with Harold, how does he fair in the nationals that he enters? ...........

I am not a historian and don't know who did what for the past 20 years or even the past 5 years at the runoffs, but perhaps RA is just not the right track for the midget/sprite, ...........
Harold is a good friend and I have raced against him when he ran H, and at the same venue as him when he went to F. At regular season Nationals he is always up front and used to dominate until recently when there were some new fast F guys. The car is a top notch Spridget and Harold is a competent driver, but he would be the first to admit that he is no Steve Sargis. His 35 at RA is somewhat of an outlier because even the year he set that time he was a good 2 seconds slower until the race. He was a National Champion at Mid Ohio in the mid-90's

My personal opinion is that an absolute top notch Spridget can run near the front at RA if driven by a top notch driver in both F and H, but has no chance to actually win the race without attrition. Lap-time-wise that would translate to a 42 in H and a 34 in F. Those are probably doable times, but they are both 2 seconds a lap off of the pole, and won't win. So, yes, Road America i not the right track for a Spridget. A 1500 Spridget might get a little closer to the front in F, and theoretically at the right weight ought to be able to run with the Spitfire.

There was a time when I wouldn't attend the runoffs if I had no chance to win, but now I realize that I only have a limited number of years left, so I go anyway. Some people that think that they can't win will not attend. If you have already won a Championship you have to admit that it is difficult to get excited about racing for top five.

Having said that, those drivers that stay home because their type of car is uncompetitive when they are running 14 seconds off the pace have to admit that they have no chance to win in any car in any class, so to use the fact that their particular car can't win is just silly, and they are missing out on all of the positive aspects of attending a race where the best in the country show up to run against each other.
 
Are guys with 1275 Midgets supposed to put $20,000 or $30,000 of motor development (conservatively) "on the shelf" just to embark on a 1500 engine development program as has been suggested previously in this thread? I think the point is (and has clearly been proven over the past 3 years) is that their cars are not competitive and nothing (save for a measley 50#) has been done to help them out. And who in their right mind would build a 1500 Midget anyway when the Midget and Spit are specced the same and the Spit effectively has an IRS now that radial tires are available???? Gimme a break, do you think these guys are that stupid? And people who are not historians or who have no sense of what has gone on in or with this Club over the past few years should be very careful with their remarks for fear of looking very foolish and ignorant.
 
I just re-read my first line of my previous post and it is grossly inaccurate. It should have said "put $20,000 to $30,000 of MOTORS on-the-shelf and throw probably three to four times that amount of money of MOTOR DEVELOPMENT out the window." Perhaps this will help "newbies" and outsiders get a better understanding of why these guys have a very sour tase in their mouths right now about what the Club has done to (sorry, FOR) them lately.
 
What I don't understand, is E production was won by a car 7-10 mph slower at T5 than the 2nd and 3rd place cars. That car won by being insanely fast from 5 around to 14. Jon's car does have a newer suspension, but weighs only 50lbs less than the nissans. (admittedly hundreds of pounds less than the BMW).

What is the MPH difference between the class winners in FP/HP and the cars that say they can't win because of HP?
 
racingspridget":1cr5nvye said:
As I said in my earlier post....Glen Cameron readily admits he leaves something on the table in the driving department. So lets look at Harold Fletcher. He and his car are as developed as any Midget/Sprite in the country. Can we agree on that point? Now look at his times versus the fast lap times from every Runoffs at RA. The closest he ever got was 4.4seconds off the pole. The worst year he was 9.6 seconds off. And I think 2010 demonstates his willingness to drive at or beyond the car's limit.
It's amazing how convincing you can make it look, when you fail to tell the entire story, or really even an accurate one. Where do you even come up with these numbers? But yes, ok, lets look at Harold then. I have been fortunate enough to spend a little bit of time with Harold over my couple of years in FP, as he's always been more than willing to talk with me, invite me into his paddock for a beer, and I've always enjoyed just listening to anything he is willing to share with me. He's a class act and a legend in the class, there's no doubt about that, and there are few racers out there that I respect more than him. So yes, lets...

At the 2009 Runoffs, Harold made his first ever trip to Road America. The first session was a down pour, so he didn't go out. The second session he had an issue, and only turned one lap, for a 3:12.213. On the third and final session, Harold turned 8 laps, and his fastest of a 2:37.033 came on his final one. That was 5.4 seconds off of Sargis' pole time, a guy who was on his home track, while Harold had now turned maybe six laps at speed there, ever. Harold lined up 12th for the race, and finished 7th, getting beat to the line by Bill Wessel for 6th by just 0.059 of a second. He ran a fastest lap of 2:35.164, on the 13th and final lap of the race, only 1.113 seconds behind the fastest lap of the entire race. It was faster than my fastest lap that year. And at that point, he had ran 20 hot laps around Road America, at best. A damn fine showing, IMHO.

He came back in 2010. He went out in the first session and did five laps, but it was wet and no one went quickly. In the second session, he ran six laps, with a fastest of a 2:39.544. Unfortunately, he spent much of that session looking for some clean track, and he went for it on lap seven. He has even said himself that he had a great lap going, at least into the 2:34's, so he kept his foot in it through the kink. As we all know, it resulted in a crash. He hasn't ran another lap there since. So yes, Harold did show on the grid sheet as having qualified with that 2:39 lap time, 8.755 seconds off the pole that year, but that is completely meaningless. By that time, he had shown good promise to get into the 2:34's (what if he had finished that lap?), and had done maybe 25 laps at speed around that track - that's less then two race distances. Lets also keep in mind that Sargis' pole time that year was 2.5 seconds faster than anyone, and was the driving reason for why it was given weight over that winter, and that time has not been replicated since. Just for fun, lets say Harold did complete that lap for a 2:34.5 - that would've put him 6th on grid. Had he been able to do that during the race, he very well could've ended up on the podium.

It should also be known that during that time from 2009 through 2010, Harold had only been able to run about 4 races per year, just enough to get qualified for the Runoffs. He was incredibly busy with work, his service to the IEEE, and traveling a lot. He was the first person to admit that he wasn't able to commit much time to racing, and when he did get to the track, he was more concerned with just getting his finishes in, then actually racing hard and continuing his development of both the car and the driver. It's unfortunate, as that's the reality of life sometimes, but that's quite the contrary to what many of the guys who've been and have become front runners in FP over the past couple of years, were doing over that time. They were running a lot of races, many of them on Road America, and were doing a lot of development to their driver & car combos.

Last week, I qualified 6th for the Runoffs at a 2:34.7, and there's no doubt in my mind that had Harold been able and willing to continue his development and time with Road America, to the same level that he was able to when he was winning Runoffs Championships, that he would've out qualfiied me. But, I also wasn't around then, so I guess I can't honestly say that. But I'd be willing to bet it.
 
I sould think that way before anyone would put 30 grand into a 1500 motor development program that they would just buy Steve's car. But I have to agree with Craig that not enough has been done for either the 1275 F or H car to make it a possible winner at the current track. The CRB catagorically refuses to do a Runoffs only adjustment, so I doubt that these cars will ever have a realistic chance to actually win until the venue moves. It sucks to piss away a couple of years while waiting for this to happen.
 
[/quote]
My personal opinion is that an absolute top notch Spridget can run near the front at RA if driven by a top notch driver in both F and H, but has no chance to actually win the race without attrition. Lap-time-wise that would translate to a 42 in H and a 34 in F. Those are probably doable times, but they are both 2 seconds a lap off of the pole, and won't win. So, yes, Road America i not the right track for a Spridget. A 1500 Spridget might get a little closer to the front in F, and theoretically at the right weight ought to be able to run with the Spitfire.

There was a time when I wouldn't attend the runoffs if I had no chance to win, but now I realize that I only have a limited number of years left, so I go anyway. Some people that think that they can't win will not attend. If you have already won a Championship you have to admit that it is difficult to get excited about racing for top five.

Having said that, those drivers that stay home because their type of car is uncompetitive when they are running 14 seconds off the pace have to admit that they have no chance to win in any car in any class, so to use the fact that their particular car can't win is just silly, and they are missing out on all of the positive aspects of attending a race where the best in the country show up to run against each other.[/quote]

Ron well said, I have won a few races this year, I have also been shown the tail lights by Prill and Harris, only attrition allowed me a 6th place finish this year, though I think I could have raced to a top ten on my own. If I subscribed to the, I wont go if I don't have a chance to win camp, I would have missed out on an incredible experience.

craig chima":3w48eygi said:
And people who are not historians or who have no sense of what has gone on in or with this Club over the past few years should be very careful with their remarks for fear of looking very foolish and ignorant.

Craig, don't worry about me I have no fear of looking foolish or ignorant, I have chose my words carefully, and have admitted my short comings as far as history goes. However, I do know enough to say that Harris (miata), Carpenter (integra), Ruck (integra), sargis (spitfire), sargis (spitfire) are the last 5 runoffs winners. I also know that guys like Prather have put a ton of time and dollars into development. I have paid casual attention to the runoffs, I thought Topeka was a terrible choice and would never have attended a Runoffs there. I put RA on my must do schedule when the runoffs moved, Mid-Ohio would have been on my list as well. I also know that guys have been squeaking about the sprite/midget being an underdog since the Runoffs went to RA. I am also smart enough to know that certain tracks favor certain cars, and that you can't please everyone. 5 different makes in the top 5 positions this year....seems like things are okay in F/P.
 
Little Bill. Easy dude. Who said I was referring to you in my post anyway? Get over yourself. It was a generic comment about people making stupid comments who have no sense of history with regard to production car racing over the past 15-20 years (my involvement goes back 30+ by the way). I could have been far less tactful and said those people who make idiotic posts should at least be informed idiots.... I think I will take the high road and let your personal attack slide.
 
Craig, your post following mine directly speaks to those that are not historians, how would you take it? I think we should both let it go...I'll buy you a weiser or a beer next year at RA.
 
Kevin,
So Harold could have qualified 6th this year. When you get to know Harold a little better you will understand that he doesn't race for 6th place. If can't win he's not coming. As proved this year.
 
Kevin et all.....BINGO Some take the Runoffs a bit more serious than others. For some, the possibility of running 4th 5th or 6th without a chance in H#%# of winning is totally unacceptable.
 
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