Runoffs F-Prod

EPrill":2yztvsgl said:
Tech was part two of this. An exterior coating on my intake manifold was ruled as non compliant and I was initially disqualified from the race. I won’t go through every bitter detail or emotion, but in the end, two courts and the CRB agreed with my interpretation and understanding of the rules and reinstated my finish. There does need to be a little cleanup in the PCS to avoid any potential confusing language with regard to this.

I am curious. An exterior coating? What rule did they feel that broke?

7. The intake manifold may be port matched on the port
mating surface to a depth of no more than one inch.
Balance pipes or tubes on all intake manifolds can be
plugged or restricted. The intake manifold can not otherwise
be modified
?

3. Stock and permitted alternate components of the drive
train can have thermal barrier and friction altering coatings
applied.

Wouldn't this cover just about anything you can do to the exterior?
Was it a specific trumping a general rule issue?
 
So just the exterior of the manifold was coated?! I'm confused why this was such an issue. When I heard about it I assumed the inside runners were coated.

So if coating is legal to the manifold does that include the whole inside and outside of it?
 
slunder":qexs2uhg said:
So just the exterior of the manifold was coated?! I'm confused why this was such an issue. When I heard about it I assumed the inside runners were coated.

So if coating is legal to the manifold does that include the whole inside and outside of it?

Good point. Yup, that needs to be cleaned up, I see it now. If exterior coating is legal, so is interior. The intake not being modified is the specific, the allowed thermal coating is the general. Right now, Technically, no modifications other than the porting 1 inch in is allowed. No coatings thermal or otherwise. Interior or exterior. I don't believe anybodys intent was to allow anything on the interior runners of a LP manifold, while external thermal coating was.
 
KDENNIS":3seu6s69 said:
slunder":3seu6s69 said:
So just the exterior of the manifold was coated?! I'm confused why this was such an issue. When I heard about it I assumed the inside runners were coated.

So if coating is legal to the manifold does that include the whole inside and outside of it?

Good point. Yup, that needs to be cleaned up, I see it now. If exterior coating is legal, so is interior. The intake not being modified is the specific, the allowed thermal coating is the general. Right now, Technically, no modifications other than the porting 1 inch in is allowed. No coatings thermal or otherwise. Interior or exterior. I don't believe anybodys intent was to allow anything on the interior runners of a LP manifold, while external thermal coating was.

Been down this road in the tech shed before in AS...rules have changed some but they have this now:

Coatings/Paint: 1. Unless otherwise restricted within the AS rules, paints and coatings are permitted on drivetrain components except for the following locations: internal engine block surfaces, internal cylinder head surfaces, internal intake manifold surfaces, and internal carburetor surfaces.
 
Didn't someone loose there podium finish at a Mid-Ohio Runoff for an external coating on their intake manifold? I do not think the rule changed.
 
I believe the issue came down to what constitutes 'drivetrain'.
drivetrain_zps9jif58zx.jpg


Wait for the Fastrack for all the details.
 
I had no intention of airing all this on a public forum, but since it has now been thrown out, here is what I based the RFA and appeal.

9.1.5.D.6. A rule that pertains to a specific component supersedes a general
rule that might otherwise apply.

The COA argued that the drive train was also a component and thus contradicted the direct reference to the intake manifold.

And then there is

1.2.3. Interpreting and Applying the GCR
A. Interpreting the GCR shall not be strained or tortured and applying
the GCR shall be logical, remembering that the GCR cannot specifically
cover all possible situations.

I will say no more about this or any other tech matter at the Runoffs. I have our Divisional Championships next week and will go there and have some fun.
 
The problem I have is throwing someone out AT THE RUNOFFS over an externally coated manifold. Too much compression, valve lift, porting, weight, etc is something worth making sure of. We didn't even have to pull the wheels off of the cars for the brakes to be checked but an external coating on an intake is worth the time. Really!?

How about making sure the transmission adder weight is confirmed with the trans in the car?
How about checking track?
How about checking brake rotor diameter?

Don't get me started on how the alternate rods had to be seen on second and third place when second and third haven't had to be seen when the rods had to be stock. Time for a change.
 
My observations of post race (and post qualification) impound and technical inspections from my first runoffs revealed a serious problem in the system. The tech personnel had a list of items to be checked on each car that had been prepared before the race or session. If the tech inspectors saw a non-compliant item on a car that was not on the list, nothing would be done about it. This system was put in place to prevent tech inspectors from going on witch hunts but the runoffs is not a place to ignore illegal items of cars.
One of HP cars had a insulating covering on the outside of it's intake manifold and I did not hear a word about it being illegal. That must not have been on the list of items to check on that car and it was on Eric's list.
Another example was an illegal aerodynamic item on a car that was pointed out to the tech inspectors in a post qualification impound. They said they could not do anything about it without a protest. We were released from impound a few minutes later and the item had been removed from the car before a protest could be done.
Another part of the system that did not work was the communication between the stewards and tech. After all the paper had need thrown and a decision had been made in our race, the stewards did not let tech know about it and resulted in us sitting in impound for several hours longer than we needed to.
 
"They said they could not do anything about it without a protest. "

That's---just---absurd!

Police cannot investigate a crime unless there's a complaint?

Stewards can only act on violations on a predetermined list, prepared by whom?

And then to hold the entire impound due to one car in question! 1/2 - 1 hour to accommodate written protests, yes; not 24 hours.

Who is policing the police? Aren't they working FOR the drivers, not against them?

RJS
 
HPCRX36":31d4g79p said:
My observations of post race (and post qualification) impound and technical inspections from my first runoffs revealed a serious problem in the system. The tech personnel had a list of items to be checked on each car that had been prepared before the race or session. If the tech inspectors saw a non-compliant item on a car that was not on the list, nothing would be done about it. This system was put in place to prevent tech inspectors from going on witch hunts but the runoffs is not a place to ignore illegal items of cars.
I do not believe that this is entirely true. Yes, tech had pre-made bulleted lists for post-qualifying and post-race inspections of specific items they were going to go down and check off as compliant or not. I have no problem with that, as it showed some pre-planning initiative and gave structure to what exactly needed to be seen/shown prior to being ok to leave impound. However, I did also see on several different instances throughout the week, across all of the Prod class, where something got questioned that wasn't specifically on the pre-made list, but was seen while the tech inspectors were checking those items. I never once heard or got any feeling of a "if it's not on the list, then we don't care" kind of attitude.

HPCRX36":31d4g79p said:
Another example was an illegal aerodynamic item on a car that was pointed out to the tech inspectors in a post qualification impound. They said they could not do anything about it without a protest. We were released from impound a few minutes later and the item had been removed from the car before a protest could be done.
Were you actually told this by a tech official? If so, I find that awfully surprising. But that being said though, I think we're losing sight of the fact that the real burden of ensuring that our cars and our competitors cars are legal, is firstly the responsibility of the racers themselves. It's on us to hold each-other accountable, and have amicable discussions over the legality of things we see and maybe question. What's wrong with doing that? Everything seems to immediately turn into a witch hunt instead, which isn't good for anyone what-so-ever. But a polite conversation with the car owner/driver about the item in question, should be able to resolve most issues, in a perfect world. Because really, if the owner/driver can't come up with a good explanation of why it is that they did something the way they did, then they either just didn't know the rules and can be enlightened, or they're stretching them and living in the "rule tortured grey area". In the latter case, that's a risky place to live, and the driver/owner could very well find themselves then defending their opinion to a tech official, so again they better have a pretty good explanation and belief in their actions. If they don't, then they probably shouldn't be doing it.
 
Kevin,
I'm not going to throw names but I was personally told by a tech inspector that he was told by the tech steward that he could not do anything in the impound because it was not on the "list" and we would have to file a protest. PM me if you want to know names and the car involved.
 
In the past, I have volunteered in tech for regional and the old style national race weekends. For each track session, qualifying or race, we would have 3 items we check on each car for each class. If we saw something non complaint safety related we could bring it up to the steward to review. But if we saw something non safety related, we could not do anything officially that session, but guess what was most likely on the list for the next session. But we could tell that driver that they may want to review their air dam, differential, etc and compare to the rules. If someone came up to us and asked us to review a modification on their car we could look at it. If another driver came up and wanted us to look at someone else's car for rules interpretation it would have to be done as a protest.
 
I said I would say nothing else, but when the truth gets bent, it bends me over. The item on the rear bumper was pointed out after I had already finished post qualifying inspection for that group and had advised the tech stewards the cars could be released. I could not go back and reopen inspection. Those are the rules. There was time then to file a protest, but no one chose to do so.

And the driver and crew saw people looking under the car and did come back later to ask what was being checked. I never said one word but did nod my head when asked if I thought it was non complaint. I also did nod my head when asked if I thought it should be removed. The question from the crew member was well past the time to protest. Several others did the same thing during the week.

As for the wrap on the manifold, we simply missed it. It was noticed but, again, after the cars had cleared tech. But, if anyone thinks that was non compliant, then they also must agree a ceramic coating on one intake manifold must be non compliant. Can't have it both ways!

It's done. The three winners won. And if you don't like my list, send me private emails at [email protected] and I'll put it on a list for whoever does prod next year. BTW, the rods were suggested by more than one competitor this year as was the transmission. I checked track the past two years and try to vary what is specifically checked.

So, blast away at tech. We simply try to enforce the rules you guys write through your input to the CRB. If you guys can't write them clearly, it's certainly not our fault. This should be a message for each of you to stop and read what is written. If you see something you don't like, write a letter. And don't expect tech to complete your witch hunts. We won't do it. You can write a protest.

Now, I'm done and plan to take a while away from the prod site. I've read where others have said the same thing and now I understand. You guys would rather attach than accept the facts. I'm a little disappointed how easy you turn on someone who has spent 45 years in prod, but....
 
This process had been in place for a whole bunch of years. Every once in a while it rears its ugly head, and there is a lot of talk, but nothing is changed.

The witch hunt syndrome was the prime reason for it's being put in place, but the side effects seem to cause more frustration.

I can give you another case where a non-complying car was allow a class win at the Runoffs, when very obviously, as seen by the naked eye, the modification was on display in post race impound for several hours and nothing was done to question the non-complying parts.

A friend of the court protest was made by the offending competitor. This is the process where if a competitor believes he has found a hidden hole in the rules, and has applied this new found speed secret to his/her car and wants the courts to determine if his/her interpretation of the written rues are in their favor. The process is kept secret and the results of he self imposed protest are not made public. This holds true if after getting a favorable or unfavorable decision by the first court , decides to file an appeal with the COA. The COA decision is also kept private and not publicized.

In this case the modification was the use of alternate, read AN, flexible brake lines on a Showroom Stock classed car. The protest, written in a clever manner, listed only part of a sentence, stopping at a comma, and not including the rest of the sentence.

The COA denied the protest, deciding that the rule as written, prohibited the use of an alternate material brake line. So, no one new of the decision, and the protestor decided to retain the offending parts for the race and take their chances.

In impound the front wheels were removed and the brake lines were in plane sight, and remained so for several hours. Either tech did not pick up on this modification, or because of the "list", did not take any action, or the other competitors didn't see or overlooked the modification. The end result was a win, win for the competitor. The Competiton Board (CRB) was not make aware of the protest/appeal, as per the rules, and did nothing to change or clarify the rule for the following year.

Compounding this problem is the possibility of a denial of a protest by SOM, because the protestor had plenty of time to file the protest before the imposed time limit on mechanical protests. What is not in consideration is the plain and simple fact that the protestor my have never had to opportunity to see the modification prior to the actual race, and only observed the modification when he/she was in post race impound, which is/was tightly controlled, with regards to access by most parties. Part of the controlled access to post race impound, is to prevent parties who may or may not have direct involvement in the race, and are not a part of the post race impound, from coming in and cherry picking an impounded car. The "Hey tech, look at this" syndrome.

On the underbody placement of a continuation of the floorboards, AKA bellypan, to enclose the rear axle, this was declared non-compliant back in the early 90's on Jeff Lane's midget, when it was referred to the CS/SOM by the tech crew at the runoffs. This was before the Witch Hunt rule. The then Chairman of the CB declared that, "Deli Trays" belonged on tables, holding the officials shrimp, not under cars.
 
FP Racer":3ccb6c9k said:
The COA argued that the drive train was also a component and thus contradicted the direct reference to the intake manifold.

Jim,
I am certainly not airing anything in public, railing against Tech or anybody else. Having been intimately involved in the rewrite. I am always curious about interrpretation, mistakes and ommisions in the PCS. I do believe there was an oversight in regards to the blanket thermal and friction coatings on drivetrain parts. The Drive Train is defined in the GCR.

Drive Train – Those components in a car which produce and convey the
driving power to the ground, and the housings containing these parts.

It's not "a component" its a collection of components, so I don't really understand the COA thinking. When asked if a manifold is part of the Drive Train, they would probably say no. For the purpose of SCCA Production racing it is included under the heading of Drive Train (right or wrong) and should be considered such.

A LP manifold by the rule as it is now, should not have any coating on the exterior or interior. It is the specific rule that trumps the general. I can tell everyone, that was not the intention. The intention was to allow thermal coating but nothing interior, an oversight by an awful lot of people. The RFA was well founded, at the same time the overturn was the right thing to do given the confusion within the PCS. Hopefully the CRB and ADHOC will clean this up and closer define thermal and friction coatings and where they can be applied on specific parts that are to remain stock.
I was just trying to learn. Didn't mean to rile anybody up by asking the question.
 
Jim,
Sorry if we misunderstood the reason you could not take any action in impound. I know you went to the tech steward to see if anything could be done using the same item on the list that you were using to check everyone's air dam. I did not hear that when you returned and told us nothing can be done and to protest that it was because the cars had already been found legal and were just waiting to be released. Whatever the reason was that tech could not do anything, the result of no action is the same. The item was going to be protested the next morning because it was getting late in the day when we were released but it had been removed by then so we did not do anything else.
 
I don't understand how anything or any part of a car could get out of impound before release. That in and of itself seems illegal? Secondly I don't think it is fair to expect Tech to protest something a competitor easily can see. Seems tech should be looking for what competitors with right to protest can't see. This hesitancy to protest has always been there but seems far less antagonistic compared to calling a car illegal on this site after the fact. Of course a back marker like myself, unlikely to be protested, has a different perspective
 
Curtis":bptamzaq said:
Secondly I don't think it is fair to expect Tech to protest something a competitor easily can see.

I think the top 6 cars should get pulled in. Head of Tech hands the 2nd place finisher a list "check the boxes of what we should check on the winner" The last box being ----"Nothing other than his Beer cooler". 3rd chooses for 2nd and 1st. 4th chooses for 3rd, 2nd and 1st. Anything 3rd would have to do, 2nd and 1st have to do. Anything you choose for the finishing cars ahead of you, you yourself must perform on your own car. The list would have nothing on it a normal post Runoffs tech wouldn't have. List is filled out in private.
 
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