Runoff Entries

[Neil Verity]

Just another thought on the reduced entries for this year.... Next year is the 50th anniversery. As such, I know many of us on the West Coasters are not coming this year so we can afford to go next year.

Neil, #83 HP MGB

 

[kevin leigh]

From my point of view the two main reasons for such a significant decline is the location and configuration of the track and the decisons of the CRB. The track is not the "typical" kind of track that we all race everywhere but at Road America. This is a track that favors certian types of cars over others and it is really unfair if your car is not the higher h.p. to weight aerodynamic favored car. If your going to hold the Runoffs at this kind of track to be fair do it for only a year and then rotate to another track that favors other type of car characteristics such as handling and not straight away speed. The CRB has not been helpful when it gives weight reductions to some top running cars and adds weight to others who were seconds behind the front runners, the perception of fairness is killing our numbers. For example we have chased away all the Caterhams because they can't be competitive when we added 100lbs. to them and reduced the weight of the RX8 by 200lbs and the Mk5 by 150lbs. That's 4 cars that I know that won't come to the Runoffs. Another topic that needs discussion is the geograpical location for the Runoffs. Out of 450 entries roughly 12.5% or 55 are from west of the Rocky Mountains Our geograpical center is more like tracks in Ohio or Georgia. I believe our numbers would increase if we got back to tracks in areas like that. We are still missing one of the best venues to hold the Runoffs which IMHO is VIR.
Kevin

 

[KDENNIS]

The market is bigger than club racing.
Even if by some miracle we fix every leak in our Club Racing pond we will still lose drivers; call it evaporation (economy, the graying of the club, vintage) If we don't create a new stream of young drivers, we are done, reardless of the next new thing in spec classing, majors creating or other gimic.

Karl,
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, growth and new members is a necessity and almost always good. But I will add the old adage (modified because I hate the word customer when applied to SCCA), it is cheaper to keep a competitor than go out and find a new one. ESPECIALLY in hard economic times. This perceived must get new, partially lead us down this road. Foresaking the existing for "if we build it they will come". I think the BOD mistakenly assumed the existing would take whatever they dish out on the chin, adjust and keep racing. They are now finding out that the concept of "at least they have a place to run their car, they should be thankfull" isn't working. New is good, but not at the expense of the competitor that already owns a truck, trailer, and race ready car.

 

[Karl McColl]

But at this point are we trying to keep a competitor (I'll play along) or trying to win them back? I posit it may be more expensive, less efficient, and higher risk to win them back than to find new. That said, we should be doing both.

Here is what I see happening: "did this make you leave? we'll change it. oh, that wasn't it ... well lets modify this ..." We are so far down that road we can't put the pieces back where they were. All the changes make for destruction of the best thing this club had to offer 20 years ago; a stable rules set and classes.

 

[KDENNIS]

That said, we should be doing both.

We absolutely agree, we should be doing both. I think the default has been whatever to get new, when it should be lets get new but take carefull precautions to maintain what we have.
Sometimes you have no choice to sacrifice existing, that can be OK if you are damn sure your getting new. "Hey lets try this" just isnt cutting it anymore.

Here is what I see happening: "did this make you leave? we'll change it. oh, that wasn't it ... well lets modify this ..." We are so far down that road we can't put the pieces back where they were. All the changes make for destruction of the best thing this club had to offer 20 years ago; a stable rules set and classes.

I think you may be right, maybe it is too late to save it. If your car is running fine and you change a fuel pump as part of preventive maintenance, and the car starts to run crappy, no power and misses. Are you going to change the spark plugs? Then change the fuel filter? Then change the wires? No, it was running fine before you changed the fuel pump, your going to go back to when it was running fine and start there. SCCA changed a fuel pump in 2006 and has thrown every part at the car since. Time to go back, figure out where it all really went wrong, and see what if anything can be saved.

PS, we all still feel really bad about our part in the 4 wheeler incident at the Prod party.

 

[Karl McColl]

Just noticed the post script, Michelle and I had a laugh.

 

[blamkin86]

478 this morning.

I'm finally going.

 

[James Rogerson]

I agree with Jason on the cost differential between running for a National Championship in Solo vs. Club Race. He and I both run low maintenance cars. I spent more money in tire testing for Solo when I ran the boxster than I did in a full year of running club race in the Honda. We figured that each one minute run in Solo cost us $65.00 in tires alone.

I'm not going to the runoffs this year because I'm tired of RA and just don't want to spend the money for the family pleasure return. I will miss the chance to see Greg and the gang, but honesly if it weren't for the Prod Party the runoffs isn't much fun. Plus I've run the Honda for four years and that's about my limit for any car. I've moved it to back of the garage and up on a lift to sit.

James Rogerson

 

[JasonIsley99]

I'm not going to the runoffs this year because I'm tired of RA and just don't want to spend the money for the family pleasure return. I will miss the chance to see Greg and the gang, but honesly if it weren't for the Prod Party the runoffs isn't much fun. Plus I've run the Honda for four years and that's about my limit for any car. I've moved it to back of the garage and up on a lift to sit.

James Rogerson

How do you finish so close to the podium last year and not go? Come on, I know you want some payback. :lol:

 

[Don Feller]

With no more entries than they have they might as well go back to the old qualification requirements for an invitation to the runoffs. Make an invitation mean something. It would also get rid of the backmarkers that don't belong there. I have never been able to understand why anyone that hasn't won a national race thinks they belong at the national championship. The runoffs are supposed to be the best of the best competing for the national championship. " The olympics of amateur motorsports" ( You don't hear that anymore). Now it is just a big party for many of the entrants. By the way, we aren't racing because of economics and the lack of discretionary income. With what they have done to spridgets in production I don't know if we'll ever come back. Our goal has always been to win a national championship. We didn't go to the runoffs just for fun. Our last trip Greg was 4th, Aaron was 5th.

 

[blamkin86]

2012, 440 entries with 30 classes. 2004 725 entries with 24 classes (SM wasnt one of them)

From MotorsportsReg:

• 2012 entry count (currently): 514. SM accounts for 24.
  2011 entry count: 537. SM accounted for 33 last year.

• 
  27% less SM entries (9/33) than last year.
  4.2% less overall entries (23/537) than last year.
  39% of the "lost" entries (9/23) are due to drop in SM entry.

I'm not saying the SCCA is doing everything right - but I am saying that
a) At least wait 'til you have the data to make assumptions
b) 4% drop in entry could be attributed to at least a dozen factors.

I'm excited to finally be going, and plan on having a good time. I think my Father-in-law is more excited than I am.

I'm over in the North A Paddock near the mazda tent and turn 14. Come by and say howdy.

PS Heartland Park had 513 entries in 2008.

 

[KDENNIS]

2012, 440 entries with 30 classes. 2004 725 entries with 24 classes (SM wasnt one of them)

From MotorsportsReg:

• 2012 entry count (currently): 514. SM accounts for 24.
  2011 entry count: 537. SM accounted for 33 last year.

• 
  27% less SM entries (9/33) than last year.
  4.2% less overall entries (23/537) than last year.
  39% of the "lost" entries (9/23) are due to drop in SM entry.

I'm not saying the SCCA is doing everything right - but I am saying that
a) At least wait 'til you have the data to make assumptions
b) 4% drop in entry could be attributed to at least a dozen factors.

I'm excited to finally be going, and plan on having a good time. I think my Father-in-law is more excited than I am.

I'm over in the North A Paddock near the mazda tent and turn 14. Come by and say howdy.

PS Heartland Park had 513 entries in 2008.

a) I did have the data I was commenting on, I was commenting on the numbers with 3 days left and the assumptions I was making are correct.
b)at no time did I compare 2011 numbers to anything.

I am glad you are excited to go, I hope you have a great week.
2004 725 / 24 = 30.2 cars per class
2012 513 / 30 = 17.1 cars per class
T1 - 9
STO - 9
T3 - 11
FC - 11
FM - 12
S2 -12
GTL - 12
SSB - 13
SSC - 13
CSR - 13
DSR - 13
GT1 - 14
GT2 - 14
FE - 14
FA - 14
Im sorry, but I don't see these numbers as anything other than trouble and indicative of some bad decisions in need of being addressed. The problems precede 2012 and 2011 numbers, therefore comparing them to anything other than pre Topeka, IMHO is meaningless to the point I am trying to make. I don't mean to put a damper on your experience, 33 cars in EP should be a great experience. The Prod category continues to Impress. Good racing to all.

 

[blamkin86]

Im sorry, but I don't see these numbers as anything other than trouble and indicative of some bad decisions in need of being addressed. The problems precede 2012 and 2011 numbers, therefore comparing them to anything other than pre Topeka, IMHO is meaningless to the point I am trying to make. I don't mean to put a damper on your experience, 33 cars in EP should be a great experience. The Prod category continues to Impress. Good racing to all.

One of those bad decisions, I submit, is moving to Road America. I've run HPT, and I can see how people thought it wasn't challenging - and I have not run RA so I can't comment.

However the numbers at HPT in '08 are the same as the numbers at RA in '12. So, draw your own conclusions.

 

[RonInSD]

I think people are forgetting what happened in mid 2008. My 401k, my house value, my overall compensation, personal investments return and most everything else finance related is not the same after that time frame. I know my disposable income is not the same. So is SCCA at fault for the bank/housing fiasco? I think more people need to take more personal responsibility and stop looking for someone else to blame.

Also can any one tell me what the minimum competition requirements are to go to the SCCA Solo national championships?

 

[blamkin86]

Ron, a quick look at the Supps for the Solo2 nationals points you to the Solo2 rules, section 4.2.

Looks like you just have to be a member, that's it. Used to be you had to run one tour or one pro.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

4.2 EVENT ENTRY
Entry into all SCCA® Solo® events is limited to those individuals meet-
ing the mandatory sections of the Solo® Rules. Additional entry require-
ments follow.
A. Regional Events – Requirements are determined by the Region or-
ganizing committee.
B. National Solo® Events – Drivers in National Solo® events must be
individual, spouse, family, or First Gear SCCA® members. Except
for the Solo® National Championships, a Weekend Membership
meets these requirements.
C. National Solo® Entry Fees
1. The entry fee shall be paid only with cash, check, money order,
Discover, MasterCard, or Visa. There will be a handling charge
for phone entries. Cancellations must be made in writing (fax to
785-861-1713 or email to [email protected] is acceptable) to the
SCCA® National Office. Entry forms, updated deadlines, and re-
fund requirements for all events will be on the SCCA® web site
(http://www.scca.com). Completed entry forms are to be sent to the
SCCA® Solo® Department by the indicated deadlines. Entries will
not be accepted after 7:00 pm the Friday of the event.
2. Please contact the Solo® Department by phone at 1-800-770-
2055 or go to the SCCA® website (http://www.scca.com) for current
entry fees and entry forms.

 

[RonInSD]

Bill, that is what I found also. Yes, most of the top competitors run multiply events during the year but the new requirement do not limit you to going if you did not do any events all year. I am not saying we should open the Runoffs the same way but what I AM saying is comparing the two events loose some ground when you take that into account.

A majority Solo competitors also drive their cars to the event pulling a small trailer. How many cars are street driven to the Runoffs? Yes Solo has a good program and a good event but they are different events. BTW all of the Solo competitors like coming to Lincoln, NE.

While checking, I have found that most 401k lost 24% to 35% of their value in 2008 and have not recovered very much since.

I also found that average house value dropped 25% to 30% in value starting in 2007 to 2008.

Taking the 725 entries for 2004 and 513 entries so far for 2012, you get a 30% reduction. See some similarities???

Ron, a quick look at the Supps for the Solo2 nationals points you to the Solo2 rules, section 4.2.

Looks like you just have to be a member, that's it. Used to be you had to run one tour or one pro.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

4.2 EVENT ENTRY
Entry into all SCCA® Solo® events is limited to those individuals meet-
ing the mandatory sections of the Solo® Rules. Additional entry require-
ments follow.
A. Regional Events – Requirements are determined by the Region or-
ganizing committee.
B. National Solo® Events – Drivers in National Solo® events must be
individual, spouse, family, or First Gear SCCA® members. Except
for the Solo® National Championships, a Weekend Membership
meets these requirements.
C. National Solo® Entry Fees
1. The entry fee shall be paid only with cash, check, money order,
Discover, MasterCard, or Visa. There will be a handling charge
for phone entries. Cancellations must be made in writing (fax to
785-861-1713 or email to [email protected] is acceptable) to the
SCCA® National Office. Entry forms, updated deadlines, and re-
fund requirements for all events will be on the SCCA® web site
(http://www.scca.com). Completed entry forms are to be sent to the
SCCA® Solo® Department by the indicated deadlines. Entries will
not be accepted after 7:00 pm the Friday of the event.
2. Please contact the Solo® Department by phone at 1-800-770-
2055 or go to the SCCA® website (http://www.scca.com) for current
entry fees and entry forms.

 

[blamkin86]

A majority Solo competitors also drive their cars to the event pulling a small trailer. How many cars are street driven to the Runoffs? Yes Solo has a good program and a good event but they are different events. BTW all of the Solo competitors like coming to Lincoln, NE.

I used to be one of those guys. If things are like they were back in my day, most of the competition is in the stock classes, and most of the stock classes drive to the events with trailers, etc.

They also love Lincoln because of the sticky concrete. I know that there were some nationals at a slick event and the 4wd cars mopped up. That's about my last recollection of cone pounding.

While checking, I have found that most 401k lost 24% to 35% of their value in 2008 and have not recovered very much since.

I also found that average house value dropped 25% to 30% in value starting in 2007 to 2008.

Taking the 725 entries for 2004 and 513 entries so far for 2012, you get a 30% reduction. See some similarities???

The economy is bad, for everyone. I haven't done it yet, but I'd like to see if NASA or any Vintage or other sanctioning bodies have had similar reductions in number. I honestly bet we're on the heavy end of the losses, but I don't have any data.

 

[blamkin86]

http://www.midohio.com/Schedule/NAS...Ready-for-Sixth-Annual-National-Championships

This was for 2011:

To qualify for the NASA National Championships presented by Toyo Tires, NASA competitors must compete in and score points in five regional races around the country. The 2011 National Championship presented by Toyo Tires weekend will feature over 400 competitors racing for the NASA National Champion trophy in 33 racing classes and nine Time Trial divisions around the famed Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course.

 

[JasonIsley99]

Just an fyi regarding your Solo info... The 2 was dropped from Solo about ten years ago, catch up guys. In the past you had to compete at one National Tour or Divisional (ProSolo is a separate series with different qualifications for its Championship - actually very much like the Runoffs), or you could pay an additional $150 for a wavier to get in to the Solo Nationals. With the elimination of the "qualifications" for the Solo Nationals there has not been a marked increase in participation, they are within a few drivers of the all time entry count. I don't believe the requirement to qualify for the Solo Nationals was ever a barrier for anyone, which made it easy to drop.

The number of cars driven or towing tire trailers has shrunk significantly as the classes have expanded. I would estimate that about 75% of the cars competing will get there on a trailer.

This is how the west coast rolls:

 

[RonInSD]

Jason, Your image did not uploaded or link.

Is this what you were trying to post?