October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

Hey guys, Talk Like a Pirate Day isn't until Saturday. please hold your comments until then.
(since this thread seems to be running off the rails, why not give it a little more ammo)
 
Building this Acura Integra Hype R for EP.
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Was running this in TT to do development work on engine and Chassis, then popped the engine.


Original goal was to build new car while running white car to learn, then roll everything into new chassis and away we go. Instead life and work get in the way. Now building engines, transmissions, chassis and suspension all at one time. In addition to all of the current work load at the shop and need to finish water damage repair at the house.

So yeah, Jim since you are "retired" feel free to ride over to Huntsville and lend a hand. I'll even supply the hotel room and food.

(No good way to scale those pics)
 
I like the change. I wouldn’t worry a about the bigger wheels bigger brakes right now. Completely redesigning a modern brake system is a big barrier to entry to run a new car with big wheels.


H prod, B spec, and Formula V should all run in the same group together.

Seriously, passing a FV in a formula Mazda feels like it should be illegal.
 
dakar318":353ob7pr said:
I wouldn’t worry a about the bigger wheels bigger brakes right now. Completely redesigning a modern brake system is a big barrier to entry to run a new car with big wheels. .
Click to expand...

Is this a joke???

Buying big wheels that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars and buying big brake kits that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars is NOT a barrier to entry.

Building an older car or keeping an older car competitive when these things are needed (because of class performance potential creep) ,but NOT sitting on the shelf IS a barrier to entry!
 
I'm pretty sure it has to do with the integrated nature of modern vehicle control modules, stability control, ABS and physical braking systems.
If I were building a "modern" car I would definitely start by dumping the whole hydraulic system for the brakes for a dual master and pedal box setup to be sure they did what I want - but some of those systems talk to other parts of the car too, so you may well need to also dump the ECU for a standalone, which sounds obvious to a lot of us, but newer DI cars are a bit more challenging in this regard.

I can definitely see this becoming the new barrier to class growth over the next 5-10 years.
 
I had to SWAG some blanks but...

Average Model Year of Runoffs Entries by class:

EP: 1991
FP: 1983
HP: 1984

Now, some would say this is their very argument. But there is a large pool of cars well into the early 2000's that can be easily built without overriding complex electronics and systems, that everyone is skipping right over. While I agree, the complications surrounding these complex electronics will rear its head at some point, I don't agree that its in the next 5-10 years according to what history has shown for whats popular to build. To say that Prod is anywhere near relevant to new car markets or an age bracket that would entice someone right out of college solely on age of equipment is nuts. We're 35 years behind!


My car was built when I was age 2.
 
tschreyer":sbpgo27o said:
I had to SWAG some blanks but...

Average Model Year of Runoffs Entries by class:

EP: 1991
FP: 1983
HP: 1984

Now, some would say this is their very argument. But there is a large pool of cars well into the early 2000's that can be easily built without overriding complex electronics and systems, that everyone is skipping right over. While I agree, the complications surrounding these complex electronics will rear its head at some point, I don't agree that its in the next 5-10 years according to what history has shown for whats popular to build. To say that Prod is anywhere near relevant to new car markets or an age bracket that would entice someone right out of college solely on age of equipment is nuts. We're 35 years behind!


My car was built when I was age 2.
Click to expand...
Maybe this is the red herring?
 
I don't agree that it has anything to do with brake modification allowances.

I think a prod car takes a fair bit of money to optimize, that starting with a $10-$20k donor is not that realistic for most. It puts the package at a price point where I misewell just buy a professionally developed race car turn key. I actually think that the lure is that the donor is actually in the $500-$5000 range.
 
GT6":30ntjc2o said:
dakar318":30ntjc2o said:
I wouldn’t worry a about the bigger wheels bigger brakes right now. Completely redesigning a modern brake system is a big barrier to entry to run a new car with big wheels. .
Click to expand...

Is this a joke???

Buying big wheels that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars and buying big brake kits that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars is NOT a barrier to entry.

Building an older car or keeping an older car competitive when these things are needed (because of class performance potential creep) ,but NOT sitting on the shelf IS a barrier to entry!
Click to expand...

Something to keep in mind is that improved brakes soon reach a point of diminishing return. Unlike most other aspects of performance, brake performance is ultimately strictly limited by the tires and weight distribution. All of our cars have brakes that can lock up the tires, and I'm sure that all can do so for several laps in a row. Some then fall off due to overheating. Most (almost all?) cars can be made to brake hard for the whole race, sometimes by dint of exotic pads, lots of ducting, etc.

Once the brakes are improved to the point that they can be used hard for the whole race (which, again, the vast majority already can) then any further improvement is in feel and controllability (largely a matter of caliper stiffness) which is fairly minor in terms of lap times.

There is also a small gain to be had in terms of unsprung and especially rotating mass. That isn't huge and in any event massive wheels and rotors are going in the opposite direction.

As long as your car can stop hard the whole race, and the brakes have decent feel, there simply isn't much performance improvement to be had via the brakes.
 
GT6":1r75z13w said:
dakar318":1r75z13w said:
I wouldn’t worry a about the bigger wheels bigger brakes right now. Completely redesigning a modern brake system is a big barrier to entry to run a new car with big wheels. .
Click to expand...

Is this a joke???

Buying big wheels that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars and buying big brake kits that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars is NOT a barrier to entry.

Building an older car or keeping an older car competitive when these things are needed (because of class performance potential creep) ,but NOT sitting on the shelf IS a barrier to entry!
Click to expand...

Do you know whats not sitting on the shelf? A Prod mandated brake system that removes the ABS system with the correct size masters, lines, proportioning, and calipers with the right piston size. Not to mention that you need to completely rewire the car with a stand alone ecu because the factory ecu is no longer getting ABS/TC/Yaw data and is in limp mode. Think about how much money you have to spend before your car even has legal brakes...
 
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