How many of the front end holes can I fill in?

[kruck]

The Miata is the prime example, where there is simply just a huge, wide mouth. Should these cars just be allowed to mount a screen/block off plate right up flush-mounted to the backside of that opening? If so, than they've effectively smoothed off that entire opening and vastly improved the aero of their cars.

Miata=Man Drama

Ban them all. :lol:

Monday, February 13th, Topeka, KS - For Immediate Release!
The Sports Car Club of America has announced today that all Mazda Miata's have been banned from all ranks of their Club Racing program. Reasons why have simply been stated as "Miata=Man Drama". Stay tuned for further developments as they become available.


Wednesday, February 15th, Topeka, KS - For Immediate Release!
The Sports Car Club of America has announced today that they are completely and totally bankrupt, and have closed and welded shut their doors this morning. Sources close to the SCCA have reported that upon hearing Monday's announcement of the ban of the popular Mazda Miata from its Club Racing program, even the power company had literally "Shut off the lights" at the SCCA's Topeka based head quarters. A rep from AEP stated "And we're supposed to believe that they'll ever be able to pay a bill again?! Ha, we're not that stupid!". By the end of Tuesday, the building resembled more of a ghost town than anything.

 

[Larry Frankenstein]

Wednesday, February 15th, Topeka, KS - For Immediate Release!
The Sports Car Club of America has announced today that they are completely and totally bankrupt,

Where would they file for moral bankruptcy?

L

 

[David Dewhurst]

This subject was beat to death starting with a post by Jason on Aug. 2, 2011.

If anyone has any suggestions as to how this should be worded, you're free to do so. Just keep in mind these things:
- There are many kinds of grills in Prod, or even lack their of.

^ Agreed

If anyone has any suggestions as to how this should be worded, you're free to do so. Just keep in mind these things:
- The desire is there to allow these grills, block-off plates, and/or tape to be out by that grill/radiator-opening, and not allowed only on the radiator surface. It's what the general practice has been by the majority of competitors (and why the issue arose at the Runoffs last year), and has been the general feelings of a majority of the PAC to continue with allowing these things out there, ahead of the radiator itself.
r.

If it's agreed that the purpose of the screen is simply to protect the radiators allow a screen of a minium size of 1/4 inch mesh be attached to & behind the grill.

If anyone has any suggestions as to how this should be worded, you're free to do so. Just keep in mind these things:
- We absolutely cannot have a wording that may in any way allow a competitor to improve the front end aerodynamics of their car.

If it's agreed that TAPE (Normal currently used material/give a definition of what tape is.) MAY be used to block air to the radiators & THAT there SHALL be no aerodynamics improvement DO NOT allow the TAPE attached to the screen which is attached to & behind the grill. Do not allow the tape to be attached to anything forward of the screen/grill. If there is a desire to TAPE block the radiators for temperature change specify the TAPE SHALL be attached to the radiators..................

FORGET ABOUT ALL THE FEEL GOOD WORDS INSERTED WITHIN THE FOLLOWING NOTE.

- The desire is there to allow these grills, block-off plates, and/or tape to be out by that grill/radiator-opening, and not allowed only on the radiator surface. It's what the general practice has been by the majority of competitors (and why the issue arose at the Runoffs last year), and has been the general feelings of a majority of the PAC to continue with allowing these things out there, ahead of the radiator itself.

THESE WORDS ^ ABSOULTY CONTRADICT THE FOLLOWING WORDS.

- We absolutely cannot have a wording that may in any way allow a competitor to improve the front end aerodynamics of their car.

 

[JohnMcNaughton]

Could it be phrased in such a way that would allow removal of the tape from outside the car?

I have 1/4" screen mesh, recessed a few inches behind the grill opening, to keep out rocks, rubber and small birds. Have twice had to remove small birds - yuk, messy. In the cool periods of spring and fall, I will sometimes add 1 or 2 strips of tape to the grill opening, and run the car. If it was too much tape, I could pit, have 1 or 2 strips removed and resume my track time. The tape was not there for aero efficiency, it was for thermal efficiency. And maximum track time efficiency, don't want to loose valuable track time trying to remove tape buried up against the radiator.

 

[David Dewhurst]

- We absolutely cannot have a wording that may in any way allow a competitor to improve the front end aerodynamics of their car.

John, I totally understand what your saying.

Are there also tracks where one could about totally tape the outside grill, do an out lap, a qualifying flier & an in lap where there was a definite aero advantage?

IMHJ, we require the minimum number of words within a rule. NO escape/get home free words. :mrgreen:

 

[EP8]

- We absolutely cannot have a wording that may in any way allow a competitor to improve the front end aerodynamics of their car.

So this really obsoletes any type and all air dams that have been mounted on production cars for...well as long as I can remember? Years!
Made the cars look like Mack Trucks anyway and no where near stock.
Maybe this can of worms has already been open...I havn't seen any wording about a splitter? Is that OK as long as it doesn't stick out past the point of the nose?

 

[Don Walsh]

Splitters are allowed as long as they don't extend forward of the profile of the front bumper viewed from directly above. A plumb line will verify it doesn't extend too far as long as you are on a dead level surface.

 

[EP8]

Thanks Don. That is what I thought but wanted to be darn sure.

 

[David Dewhurst]

- We absolutely cannot have a wording that may in any way allow a competitor to improve the front end aerodynamics of their car.

So this really obsoletes any type and all air dams that have been mounted on production cars for...well as long as I can remember? Years!

For my 2 cents worth within the context of Kevin's words he ment aero relative to covering the grill area.

 

[loopracing]

JEEEZ, How about this?: No covering of stock body openings as viewed from the front. A 1/4" mesh screen covering the radiator in front, no wider than the radiator and located against the front radiator surface, is allowed. Tape may cover screen for purpose of temp management.

What kind of holes can be shot through this. If you want to tape up your grill on a 90 degree day for that .001 sec better qualifying run, I say go for it.

 

[Bill Underwood]

Tape may cover screen for purpose of temp management.

A $5 thermostat can do a better job of temperature management with no effect on aero at all.
About as simple as it gets.

 

[Greg Gauper]

Tape may cover screen for purpose of temp management.

A $5 thermostat can do a better job of temperature management with no effect on aero at all.
About as simple as it gets.

This is true...as long as the T-stat never fails.
I've had two T-stats fail in the closed position on me.

I now run a modified T-stat that can't fail completely closed and this works great in ambient temps from 60 to 100 deg F like we see here in Cen-Div.
However due to the modification, it does run too cold when the ambient gets below 60. I've been to some events where it was at or near freezing particularly in the Spring.
Anybody remember the 'Artic Cat' National at RA back in '94 when it snowed?
And you can't always plan ahead since our Wisconsin weather can change for one day to the next.
I've been the June Sprints where it was in the mid 80's on Saturday and low 50's on Sunday when a front came thru.
Tape is a quick and simple method of fine tuning the temperature managment when dealing with our temperature extremes here in the Midwest.

 

[Tom Broring]

I have been watching this string because my wife and I run a VW with a full width grill like the original post asked about as well as my Spitfire. My Spitfire radiator screen was talked about by several other competitors this past year the Runoffs tech. It has run a screen rivited directly behind the air dam, the same size as the radiator opening since the mid-80's. From the wording of the rule change this winter, it seems that such screens are now considered an aerodynamic aid. I think something that was missed in reconsidering screens is that the size of the openings in the screen has everything to do with whether there is any air restriction. My old showroom stock car was specifically allowed 1/4" screen in front of the radiator. The screen I have run on my Spit is called #6 (6 openings per inch). I consider that small rock sized. I have on the other hand seen metal screen that is so closely woven that it looks like fabric. I am not aware that anyone has taken things that far.

I would much have preferred that the entire wording not been changed except for considering a minimum sized sceen opening size. I find the new wording contradicts the reality of the many different grill/rad support/radiator configurations.

To the original question from Mike about the VW, it appears to me that the new wording allows unrestricted blocking of the grill/radiator opening as long as it is 2" behind the grill. I can think of some ways that could be used to a new set of advantages on some cars.

 

[David Dewhurst]

I have on the other hand seen metal screen that is so closely woven that it looks like fabric. I am not aware that anyone has taken things that far.

Viewed this ^ on production cars at Topeka & Road America. Also on GT cars.

IIRC a screen was a :wink: :wink: at the Runoffs last year because there was no written rule.

 

[Don Walsh]

I'm with Tom on this. Why not modify the wording to limit the minimum screen size to 1/4" and placed behind the grille opening? Due to all the various configurations on prod cars, there needs to be a simple rule. I think this would be the best solution and shouldn't result in an unfair advantage for any particular car.

Letter sent to CRB, tracking # 7435.

 

[Bill Underwood]

This is true...as long as the T-stat never fails.
I've had two T-stats fail in the closed position on me.

Wow, that's quite a record. How do street Honda's survive in the wild?
My experience has been a lot better - 40ish years, and the only one I had fail was in a Chevy van towing to Moroso.
(I have also seen engines overheated due to too much tape, so there's no perfect solution.)

I am in favor of allowing 1/4" screen in the "grill opening". The Spitwad's has been ty-wrapped to the back of the grill for years. Guess it's been cheatin' all this time. And I don't care.
I would even be in favor of a convex curved 1/4" mesh mounted to an air dam, and protruding forward so as to be self cleaning.
But no external tape.

 

[Al Seim]

JEEEZ, How about this?: No covering of stock body openings as viewed from the front. A 1/4" mesh screen covering the radiator in front, no wider than the radiator and located against the front radiator surface, is allowed. Tape may cover screen for purpose of temp management.

What kind of holes can be shot through this. If you want to tape up your grill on a 90 degree day for that .001 sec better qualifying run, I say go for it.

I don't think that placing the screen makes for very effective radiator protection, so I don't agree with this.

Al

 

[Protech Racing]

What I did; I covered 6 of the 10 "grill opening" holes behind the bumper.
The "grill" stays open ,of course.
The car ran a touch hot, I removed the tape from 3 of the covered holes.

IMHO, the best rule is no rule. "No covering of the stock grill" is fine. Rock screen in front of the rad is a given, to me.
Tape/screen, the crap out of the rest of the holes . It is self policing, more tape= more burnt down engines.

Also observed real world grid ,"air dams". Most of the cars have the glass bumpers with the air dam dropped straight down from the edge of the bumper. Just a slight line to meet the rule of bumper /airdam .
These air dams are clearly well infront of the "bodywork shadow" .

We are running this car in HP, for fun. We use the SRF tires, all steel body, 100% glass so far. My Son drives the crap out of it, and he took P2 Sun race. His first race in a locked FWD race car. Life is good.

 

[EPrill]

This controversy started at the Runoffs. The car that Tech (Jim C correct me if I'm wrong) was the Moser Honda on Tuesday. Here's the only pic I can find of it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jbonvouloi ... 8690132965

The screen is outside of the bodywork. From there, it was noted by Tech that technically there was no rule about screens so technically everyone with one was in violation.

There's probably no changing the rule now, but what would have been wrong with simply stating that the screen needed to be contained within the bodywork? If you're worried about the screen becoming an aero help, then spec a mesh like IT has. That way Kevin, when you get the cool bodywork from John D you can put a screen right behind the opening and make it look bad-ass like my car (was).

As it is, I have a car, like others, with an Air Dam to the letter of the law that was designed to have the mesh screen help the rigidity of the fiberglass that I now I have go back to the drawing board with.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jbonvouloi ... 690132965/

It's not just Miatas either. Every Lotus has to do something different now because of the opening of the nose (which has a wire "grille" that we just wire-tie screen to):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jbonvouloi ... 2439597745. These are just the cars that I'm closely familiar with. I'm sure there are others that are seriously affected by this rule wording.

Yes, I do have heartburn over this. Is it a done deal? I assumed it was. Maybe it's not?

 

[Protech Racing]

Most,of the sedans, in that pic file, have air dams mounted under and almost flush with the Bumper cover.( well if front of the body shadow.) How is that?