kruck
Well-known member
Thanks Dave, I appreciate those comments. I also completed four passes on the banking, while being passed four times on the banking, including an even 1-1 record against Huffaker's Midget. On the last lap, the leader bobbled out of the chicane, the 2nd place car was forced to go to the lead too early, and they both fanned out to give me a perfect tow. Despite that, it took an even more perfect sequence of other random events throughout that race for me to even have a chance on the last lap. I fully admit that, because yeah, that's exactly what happened. But I also couldn't be more proud of how my car performed from flag to flag, the drive I put in to get that chance, and the effort we (my Dad, my Wife, my buddy Sam, and I) put into making a great car.David Dewhurst":26z2bb8q said:
Could also be from someone who was actually there watching it happen without blinders on. Sargis' Spitfire could've won 4/4 Runoffs at Road America he attended, had some bad circumstances not gone his way, instead winning "only" 2/4. A Midget and a Lotus were the class of the field at Laguna. The top-10 in qualifying at Daytona featured seven different classifications (including a Midget, a MG-A, and a MG-B), none of which were put into production by their manufacturers post-1990, and a Midget would've won had it not cut a tire, rewarded for being a great combination of car and driver who also ran the cleanest race, like it's supposed to happen. Intermixed with these above examples, during that same referenced period, the Miata (both roadster & hard-top), the Integra, the Fiat 124, the Datsun 1600, the Lotus 7, and several others have also proven to be viable podium contenders. None of this is based on feeling, or conjecture, or my hope of how I'd like it to be. It's just fact of what actually happened.RICK HAYNES":26z2bb8q said:
I wasn't at Laguna because in the 10 months prior to it I got married, took a new job 1400-miles away from home, bought a new house, and basically had no money and no vacation time for racing that year. I would've loved to have been there, to see how I stacked up against the best at an iconic track and have a ton of fun with my friends.
I can't wait for Mid-Ohio. It's going to be a great race, full of quick, diverse cars and drivers, on a great track. Could something small and British win? Yeah, one very well could, just like what was shown at the three previous venues. But if Sargis winning at Road America in a Spitfire (x2), a Saurino winning at Laguna in a Midget, and Huffaker being real competitive at Daytona apparently couldn't make the nay-sayers happy, then why would I expect that to? In fact, I'm failing to realize why I'm even bothering to argue this.
FWIW, I rallied for that exact idea amongst the PAC, yet adjustments were decided upon that put more weight onto most the rest of the class instead, creating even bigger weight disparities, yet the same power deficiencies. I understand the argument against it, that it would force people to crack open their perfectly good 1275cc LP engines and re-build them to different specs, while also pretty much admitting that the full-prep 948cc FP engine is being passed by. But the argument for it would bring those limited-prep cars closer to the front of the existing field, make the field race together in a more similar fashion, give the 948cc racers a viable classification for their existing chassis with a much cheaper and more reliable 1275cc drivetrain, and quite possibly make the field bigger by bringing some other chassis' out to play again. IMO, that was a sacrifice enough people would be willing to make. Not enough people agreed with me though, and that's ok, because it's certainly a debatable topic. Unfortunately though, if the discussion here is any indication, those changes haven't been enough to make the LBC racers happy, and I can tell you that it also made it less desirable to build one of the newer cars as well. The conversion of my ITB '93 Civic to HP has since halted, in favor of STL.Bill Blust":26z2bb8q said:
I'm just asking a question, but I was wondering if maybe classifying car something more like they do in vintage racing might get more competitive racing. Classify cars by age and technology levels as a base line then make competition adjustments in the class based on engine size car weight and prep level? Then you would get the chance to race against guys who enjoy the same cars you do (making the racing more fun) and with the prep level adjustments you might limit some of the cost and engineering?
hoffman900
Well-known member
bfiesta85":ib2uc2ud said:
Vintage doesn't have competition adjustments. They use historic SCCA (and FIA where applicable) classing with some rules pulled out of a vintage GCR. The rest is supplemented by the sanctioning body. So it's a 1972 GCR base with 2016 _____ (insert sanctioning body) rules in addition to. Some run groups have SCCA, FIA, IMSA, SCCA Pro, etc. cars running - no way you could balance that.
The older full prep stuff should (depending on how well it was designed, the vintage of the shocks, etc.) should run circles around the LP stuff in the chassis department. You're allowed a clean slate design essentially. Engines may or may not be less powerful - as we saw in the Runoffs two years ago, there is still a lot more to be had in a platform that some feel is maxed out :shock: It's a combination of putting drivers who are young and talented enough combined with a modern development cycle by a very savvy engine builder who is up on current trends - in old platforms to run at that level... Even someone on Joe Huffaker's level couldn't keep up, at least that year. There are a lot less people willing to put in that effort however.
The modern stuff, like the Hondas, have the benefit of being leaned on by some brilliant minds all over the world and are raced all over the world. They're beyond development wise even old stuff that has been developed for 50 years when you add up all the man hours (hundreds to thousands of people developing parts, information vs. just a small handful over a longer period of time).
$$ wise, vintage is a bigger money pit. As an example. one of the top B-Production engine builder (Fords) are driving down to the Carolinas to rent Spintron time to develop their valvetrains, have changed their CNC head program 5x+ based on gains found on the flowbench and dyno, have flown up on multiple occasions one of the premier header fabricators in the country to try out designs, $$ piston ring set ups (~$1200 for a set on a V8 due to materials and coating selection). Modern design racing shocks that fit within the vintage rules "no remote reservoirs", etc. Otherwise, how to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for a car that will turn the same laps times as a SCCA GT-Lite car (though, they do sound a lot cooler).
I'm sure you could dump that kind of money into something like MG by paying someone like MultiMatic to build the chassis and Katech build the engines, but why would you, and what fictional point do you declare a car to be developed and driven well enough to base competition adjustments off of? It's amateur club racing after all and at some point it shouldn't be about the hypothetical what-ifs, that's for pro. See Kyle's post about using modeling software which could help.
David Dewhurst
Well-known member
Reading Bob's post reminded me of one named Scott Tucker and his gazillion dollar DSR car which was the first ever SCCA club racing car to lap under two minutes at Road America.
Jason Stine
Well-known member
kruck":3busuvdq said:
Not arguing that a more modified/powerful 1275 is the way to go, but the comment about a LP motor being cheaper is not entirely true. Yea you are allowed fewer bells and whistles, but at the end of the day, when you take into account flow benching, dyno testing, and recently, after market rods, the cost of building a top 5% LP motor is just as much as building a full prep one. Or, so a very respectable engine builder has been telling me
hoffman900
Well-known member
Stiner0931":2bhpiqin said:kruck":2bhpiqin said:
Not arguing that a more modified/powerful 1275 is the way to go, but the comment about a LP motor being cheaper is not entirely true. Yea you are allowed fewer bells and whistles, but at the end of the day, when you take into account flow benching, dyno testing, and recently, after market rods, the cost of building a top 5% LP motor is just as much as building a full prep one. Or, so a very respectable engine builder has been telling me
Otherwise, see $8k or whatever they go for, Spec Miata, Formula Vee, or Formula Ford engines...
But what's the life expectancy?
And the "gentleman" (hah!) 'pro' driver with all the coaching and seat time money could buy was still what, 5+ seconds a lap slower than the 20 something pro?
Ron Bartell
Well-known member
First, it is time to officially declare the 948 dead. They can't make weight, and everyone with any sense (no offence) has already converted or are in the process of doing it. Yes they can still be competitive if driven well, but they should not enter into any discussion about what needs to be done with the future of Spridgets in H. Weber sold his car and Collshaw hasn't been out in years since he got pounded at RA. Mike Cummins and a few others have converted, and Kerry Foot and Jason Stine are in the process of switching to the 1275. The remainder have their reasons for not converting but would admit that they are not intending to be competitive.Stiner0931":mvj6vknn said:Not arguing that a more modified/powerful 1275 is the way to go, but the comment about a LP motor being cheaper is not entirely true. Yea you are allowed fewer bells and whistles, but at the end of the day, when you take into account flow benching, dyno testing, and recently, after market rods, the cost of building a top 5% LP motor is just as much as building a full prep one. Or, so a very respectable engine builder has been telling mekruck":mvj6vknn said:
Second, the LP 1275 should be a good bit less than the full prep 948: $1,500 differential on the crank, $800 to $1000 difference on the head work (porting etc.), $400 on the roller rockers, at least $1000 on the dry sump pump, tank, and pan, $200 on carbs. So, about a $4,000 or so differential. That is plenty, plus the need to rebuild MUCH more frequently, like four hours versus 12 plus races. The rest I would agree is a wash. I don't know whether you consider me as credible as your very respected engine builder but I have been on both sides of that discussion.
Jason Stine
Well-known member
Ron - you've been carrying the Spridget flag for quite some time and have been at the front with both the 948 and 1275 so I absolutely consider your input credible. I wasn't taking the dry sump or carbs into the equation and assumed that nothing could be recovered from the junk head cores that were obtained (washing out the expense from porting, etc. for the full prep), so my comment was based on the only real measurable savings being in the crank. I stand corrected.
R
RICK HAYNES
Guest
Sargis, Saurino ,Huffaker are all very good drivers and them winning and doing well is not surprising,,,,,,,,,,, or is it even remotely the point.
hoffman900
Well-known member
Serious question, but what was different about Craig Chima's LP1275 in the 2006 Runoffs (2 seconds faster than 2nd place, 4 over the next fastest MG)? It had a LP suspension / less weight, correct?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IDRaFDLQ3co
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IDRaFDLQ3co
Protech Racing
Well-known member
Isnt there a 1340cc Mini engine that fits? How about a "Spec 1340" @ X weight . Spec the build @ a reasonable RPM and compression, dyno it and determine weight.
Or even look @ a replacement engine/ trans that makes the easy 110HP for a few thousand or less. Look at what has happened to the FF with the Honda engine. Total class rejuvenation.
Find a cheaper engine to build, spec the parameters , allow the engine in all pre 1980 cars @ X weight.
Keep in mind that the big tin tops cant loose more than about 100#, some will have trouble @ that.
Or even look @ a replacement engine/ trans that makes the easy 110HP for a few thousand or less. Look at what has happened to the FF with the Honda engine. Total class rejuvenation.
Find a cheaper engine to build, spec the parameters , allow the engine in all pre 1980 cars @ X weight.
Keep in mind that the big tin tops cant loose more than about 100#, some will have trouble @ that.
R
RICK HAYNES
Guest
So the solution is for a large segment of the racers to just replace their motors with new ones? How about this, require every one to run 1800cc Honda motors and we just load everyone up with lead until all the cars weight the same? Both sound equally impractical to me.
Bill Blust
Well-known member
If all agree that the HP LP LBC cars need help, you certainly do not need to look at alternate motors. Lots of relatively inexpensive options that would add more power. Lets not over engineer a simple fix.
Ron's comments on page 5 are as close to right as you can get. I've pulled 4 to 6 seconds off my lap times on both Sebring courses with our LP 1275s... and that's in our autocross car which is as close to farm wagons as you can get suspension wise. Also, this is running a distributor with a Crane XR700 unit without the big box hooked up. The electromotive is on the future hybrid that we hope will take off more seconds with the full prep suspension. As for money... haven't seen the decrease in costs yet but history with the 1275 autocross engines says they last a whole lot longer.
Bob
Bob
Rob Futcher
Well-known member
hoffman900":1zkz2vmp said:
Craig's car in '06 was stretching the LP rules suspension-wise and spent much of the week in tech due to protests, but was declared legal to the letter of the written rule. The rules were subsequently amended in '07 to outlaw the mods done to the car; slipper springs, 3-link, Watts-link and some very trick front suspension that was effectively a full-prep suspension (geometry-wise). And yes, it was a lot lighter than a hybrid car. The car was sold and the following year had to run at the much heavier hybrid weight to be legal.
It's now a vintage car with very nicely done body-work. Full description, story and pictures here: http://www.britishracecar.com/ChuckPitt-Spridget.htm
Protech Racing
Well-known member
Just looked up the times from Sebring Majors last week. Ron went 2:38 xx. That is plenty fast and will finish top 3 any of the last three years.
The car is plenty fast!! Do whatever he is doing !
MO should be a LBC walk over.
The car is plenty fast!! Do whatever he is doing !
MO should be a LBC walk over.