Hp and 2 litre ITB cars

chois":37mcklgu said:
mmacquee":37mcklgu said:
we have 5 ports and two tiny carbs, and they won't give us 12:1? in addition to the club trying to drive us out why does everyone else want to crap on us? Have had some experiences with Volvos running F, they don't see us and regard our bodywork as fungible assets. Yes, I am old, and remember the days of 40 car H/G fields filled with spridgets and spits, but we're not dead yet!

This is a terrible way for anyone in any of our classes to end up feeling. Yes it is harder to see a smaller car, but we need to.

I feel like in some areas we see a good collective camaraderie and culture, and in others it’s a group of individuals on track. We are pretty fortunate in CenDiv to have, in my opinion a strong class culture in H, and a decent category culture in Prod with a few bumpy moments to be sure.

There is no easy answer to establishing a desirable dynamic, but the obvious first step is, on some level, to know each other as a person. The Olsen brothers actually do a great job of fostering the right kind of culture with the way they create a nice forum to get together at the track. Dayle Frame has done a great job of this with the category at runoffs events. Chuck and Tammie Mathis did the same for VW racers at runoffs past. Obviously it’s hard to do in a c19 world, but this is what sets our group apart from the ones with higher percentages of arrive and drive and rental drivers.

I know not everyone falls into the “social media” trap, but Facebook does have some groups that make it easier to get to know one another, and support those that need it to get going in racing. The SCCA Production Racers group that Jesse Prather started last year is a more engaging platform that can support many of the conversations held here, the SCCA H Production Racers group that Jason Stone started does the same at a class specific level.

Me personally, I like what forums used to be, because they are structured better, and theoretically remain more consistent over time, but with FB no one needs to set up, manage, maintain or pay for the infrastructure supporting the group like some great people do for us here.

I’d highly recommend that we all take a little time to find our racing communities on social media and join them. Interact, share progress, share challenges, teach newcomers, get to know the faces and names of the racers you are on track with. The SCCA is the most legitimate club racing organization on the continent, but one of its strongest attributes is the community that makes it up. We can strengthen that and improve our racing experience simply by fostering and reinforcing the community we race in. What we do here helps, but honestly it’s not going to live forever, and we get very little ability to get to know each other in this format due to its “transactional” interaction style.

Sorry for derailing the gnashing of teeth and head asploding related to big block HP cars and delicate long developed small bore foundations of the class. Back to your regularly scheduled “Prod Foruming”.

Chris - I think you just punched your ticket to the Prod Ad Hoc committee. When are you submitting a resume and running? :D

While we're talking about the ITB volvo's that are parked, what about the plethora of GP spridgets that are out there? Between those and the so called "dinosaurs" with 948 stuff (yes, I finally converted my car to the 1275), there has to be a good 40-50 spridgets out there just needing a facelift. But, who wants to do the work? Nobody... especially when the club is trying to drive us out, per Mike's comments.
 
I completely disagree that the SCCA is "trying to drive out" the LBCs.

A special rules carveout, the hybrid L1/L2 classification, was done specifically to RETAIN LBCs by allowing existing L1 cars to update to lower maintenance L2 engines. The best LBCs with the best drivers can still run up front in H, at least on many tracks.

Eliminating G was wrong but that's ancient history now and IMO wasn't directed specifically at LBCs, they got caught in the crossfire like everyone else. Consolidating everything into F and H was hard, imperfect and remains so.

Most LBC owners seemingly quit in a huff when the class became more diverse and the winner was no longer guaranteed to be an LBC. But most of those folks - like me - were never gonna be on a Runoffs podium no matter what the ruleset. For all the normal reasons of talent, budget and dedication.

YMMV
 
Al.... SCCA has already driven out the LBCs with a couple exceptions at the runoffs level. When you have Honda CRXs and VWs turning lap times 2 to 6 seconds faster than any of the good LBCs it sure looks a success for SCCA. We're running a 1/2 car and you ought to see the pile of 2nd place trophies we have on our shelves. Contrary to what's been said here the folks in Central Florida Region all get along just fine regardless of the track results. It's a great community of a bunch of talented drivers having fun on weekends. Only problem is it used to be a lot more fun. Regardless of the track outcome we always win the party.

Bob
 
Umm - Ron Bartell set fastest lap at 2019 VIR Runoffs in H driving something that looked an awful lot like a Spridget. I understand the difficulties racing a handling car against a torque car, but fastest lap isn't exactly 2-6 seconds slower.

I'd have been 2-6 seconds slower than him if I'd been there, but that would have been on me not the SCCA.
 
My silly anecdote. Years ago we were paddocked down at the entrance to the swamp at RD Atlanta. Siting outside the trailer one afternoon we watched a Sprite trying to get "out of the hole" onto the upper skid pad area. I assume he was going to the grid for his race. Anyways it took 20min and eventually some help with someone pushing to get the car up the hill. Its like the car didn't have enough torque or too much gear for his car to climb out of the hole below the skid pad. Is that normal for the LBCs?

Surely not.
 
Bob Hess":p67cbg2l said:
Mike.. All this talk is fine but so far I haven't seen any of the proposed cars for HP that can out run the VWs we have running in the SE division. The few we have running in Central Florida usually wind up finishing with the FP cars. Me, I'm tired of being told we have everything we need to win in HP so going to keep working on our Vintage car.

By the way, remember the Rose's Volvo 1800/ES that took year end honors in both E and F in the early 2000s? 226 hp at the wheels and two good drivers.

Bob

I doubt there was any Volvo in E or FP making 226 whp. No way. There are current E cars with a lot more modern engines that won't make that. They also have to run at more weight.
 
Pretty sure that Ron holds the LR for Sebring also . 2:36 xx The fastest MY VW has gone is 37-38 .

The fastest cars in the class right now are the LBC Spit 1500, Spridget 1275, Maybe the dam early EFI Honda CRX, and the MGB has good numbers. In that order MOL. There are a few other cars that have good numbers but have not produced the results yet. MR2. Honda fit etc.

This thread was to include the slow ass ITB cars with 2.0 litre engines.
The "over developed" ITB Volvos went 2:23 at WGI , when Bartells lap record was 2:17. A touch more cam and a 200# out and the Volvo is close. The BHP cars had pretty good cams and very close to 10.5 to one or more. They will not crush the class . Same with the BMW 320 and 318.
Let the cars play, adjust as we see fit. It's not rocket science . Weight/HP/torque .
 
I'd be careful with those numbers, Mike. Take off 200 lbs, add slicks, Prod engine, potentially better gearing and I'd think that you could see 5% taken off the ITB time.

My best HP lap at Summit Point is right at 95% of the ITC lap record. (1.6 VW is a competitive ITC car though the record is held by a 510). And incidentally 2+ seconds slower than Mr Bartell's HP record.

I'm NOT against 2L H cars but I think that your numbers are a bit off.
 
For the Volvo in HP the ship has sailed for me and most others that had the desire to try. I ran my FP?? Volvo for a number of years and dumped a pretty fair amount of time and money in development and the 2.19 at VIR was as good as it was going to get for me. I sold my Volvo when I came to the realization that there wasn’t enough Cubic dollars of money to make a Volvo 142 competitive in FP.

I built a Acura Integra and ran a 12 at VIR at the RunOffs and needed another 4+ seconds to be even close. I will continue to work and develop my Integra after recovering this damn Covid crap and shoulder replacement surgery.
 
Les, you going to be able to make the Goblins Go? I chip in for an ambulance. We can just sit you outside tech with a sign that says "reformed Volvo driver" .
 
Sorry Brett. The numbers are there and have been for quite a while on the 226 hp Volvo. Man who built the car is on level with Ron and Joe Huffaker on engine building.
 
By the way, Ron also broke the track record at the Mid Ohio runoffs a few years ago. Got booted off the track by a tin top and ripped some fast laps trying to get back to the front.
 
Bob Hess":hs3joo56 said:
Sorry Brett. The numbers are there and have been for quite a while on the 226 hp Volvo. Man who built the car is on level with Ron and Joe Huffaker on engine building.

WHP?? In LP trim or it trim?
 
Out of curiosity, what Volvo engine? And really wheel horsepower, as in chassis dyno? And not converted back to flywheel horsepower via some fudge factor?
 
Al Seim":1bvuovky said:
I'd be careful with those numbers, Mike. Take off 200 lbs, add slicks, Prod engine, potentially better gearing and I'd think that you could see 5% taken off the ITB time.

My best HP lap at Summit Point is right at 95% of the ITC lap record. (1.6 VW is a competitive ITC car though the record is held by a 510). And incidentally 2+ seconds slower than Mr Bartell's HP record.

I'm NOT against 2L H cars but I think that your numbers are a bit off.

To put a data point to this.
My car as a pointy end of the ARRC ITB entry when we ran in that classs.

It turned a 1:24.6 in IDEAL conditions and recently refreshed track at Blackhawk, and a 1:20.8 trying to keep up with Meller this year.
Same car turned a 2:52.2 chasing Stehly in his 2.0 ITB VW, and a 2:42.1 at the Cat on Saturday, again trying to keep up with the Datsun

(BTW - despite often hearing how the VW has a "strong motor" it is still not the fastest around RAm - that is the L2 Spit and L1 B210)
 
Chris -

So if I read that correctly you ran Road America in 2:52.2 in ITB and 2:42.1 in H?

So that's a 5.9% lap time improvement, a tad better than my 5% SWAG.

Al
 
chois":1s1al28j said:
(BTW - despite often hearing how the VW has a "strong motor" it is still not the fastest around RAm - that is the L2 Spit and L1 B210)

Yea, that 1500 spit is pretty damn quick. Couple that with one of the most successful prod racers out there and it's a lethal combination. The 210 is quick, and no offense to Meller, but if the spit holds together, I see Steve running away with it at Elkhart Lake next month.
 
Al Seim":1mxofyn3 said:
Chris -

So if I read that correctly you ran Road America in 2:52.2 in ITB and 2:42.1 in H?

So that's a 5.9% lap time improvement, a tad better than my 5% SWAG.

Al

RAm is a different track than most. FWIW the TR in HP is 2:39.x.
 
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