button flywheels

Jerry Oleson

Well-known member
I'm thinking about a button flywheel setup for my Sprite, but with the LP 1275 it looks like it would not be legal. 9.1.5 i 4 any flywheel of stock diameter. Could I use a button flywheel with a flexplate stye ring gear? Ring gear definition says it's part of the flywheel. What do you guys think.
 
...It's referring to the ring gear diameter. Otherwise with a smaller diameter flywheel (ring gear) you'd need a special bell housing, special reverse rotation starter, probable tunnel mods, etc. like they use on sprint cars. Well beyond the intended prep level of prod.
 
Most likely would be a very small flywheel and a sperate flexplate style ring gear, Ring gear would be stock diameter but button flywheel would be considerably smaller. It's the two piece part that I'm not sure about. What I want to do is use a double disk 4 1/2 inch clutch I've been given but do not want to waste money making the 2 piece if it would be considered illeagle. Thanks for any resonses for or against.
 
Jerry Lee,

You might want to contact the SCCA Competition Board for an official ruling (in writing).

Several years ago, I was strongly considering not having any clutch components in my H/P car, thereby reducing the energy absorbing rotating mass (moment of inertia reduction). A dog-ring synchro transmission would be a necessity. Getting the car moving from a stop would be a challenge, but could be accomplished with some help. Yes, I have run complete races with a broken clutch that would not release. You might remember the 1986 race at Second Creek.

At my first driving school, two of the flywheel to crank mounting bolts fell out and the other two sheared off. The flywheel stayed in place due to flange ridges on the crank and flywheel. As I coasted into the pits, blipping the throttle, I was really impressed by the extremely quick revving and slowing-down of the engine, much the same as a (no- clutch) sprint-car.

This event, caused by the former owner of the car not torquing the bolts correctly, prompted me to consider the "no-clutch" design, after the legal introduction of dog-ring synchro transmissions in the early 1980s. An extremely light weight flywheel replacement, with a flex-plate design with many holes, and a narrow starter ring gear, would be desirable. Lots of mental designs, but no action, however.

Stay tuned for some horsepower calculations.

Charlie Tolman
H/P 40 (Retired)
 
So far the general consensus is it is legal, but please keep posting opinions. Charlie, I have a dog ring transmission and do only use the clutch to get moving, I remember you being at Second Creek once but none of the specifics. I have the feeling that you've moved to Vintage is that right?
 
Most all of the aluminum flywheels designed for small diameter clutches have steel wear surfaces that is bolted to the rest of the flywheel/starter ring. How is a button flywheel that bolts to the crank with a stock flex plate truly any different in design concept? Both designs use the stock bolt holes on the crank, do not require a different placement of the starter, and have the same outside starter rings size.
 
There are flywheel designs used by dirt track cars that are 6" in diameter and weigh 5 pounds. Part of this package are starter motors, either mounting from the front or back, reverse rotation or standard rotation, with an idler gear between the starter gear and the flywheel gear.

Google Bert and Brinn, flywheels and clutches, and find a parallel universe.

Charlie T.
 
Jerry Lee,

I have personally slowly moved to vintage, not vintage racing, but vintage living due to advancing years. In jest.

The H/P car was sold about 1999, and went to a family in Wisconsin that raced in Midwest Council. About five or six years ago, the car went to Texas and is racing in vintage events.

Charlie T.
 
To my read flexplate = flywheel diameter The first of several times I have seen this done was 20 years ago (and by a then member of the comp board). The flex plate was simply bolted on to/with the Tilton or quarter master clutch cover.
 
Here are some calculations regarding the amount of energy and power required to "spin-up" a clutch assembly.

Assumptions:
Clutch radius = 4"; clutch weight = 10 pounds (convert pounds to poundals for calculations).
Moment of inertia is close to that for a uniform flat disk (not clutch disk).
Rev limit = 8000 rpm, or 133 revolutions per second, rps.

Kinetic Energy = 0.5 * I * (w)^2, where I is the moment of inertia and w is the angular velocity (radians/sec),
and where I = 0.5 * m * (r)^2, where m is the mass ( m = weight/g ), and r is the radius. g = 32.1 ft/sec^2.

Therefore, KE = 6092 foot-pounds = 11.1 horsepower seconds. (Energy) (This could be expressed in watt-hrs.)

If the clutch is spun-up in 2 seconds, the Power required is 11.1 / 2 = 5.5 hp.
If it takes 5 seconds, 2.2 hp; 10 seconds, 1.1 hp; 20 seconds, 0.55 hp. ( KE / time = power; 550 ft-lbs/sec = 1 hp )

Each horsepower is jealously guarded by every racecar driver, especially in H/P.

Treat the flywheel in a separate calculation, due to its different diameter.
If an aluminum flywheel weighs 7 pounds, its radius is 6", and the net moment of inertia is near 0.6 * m * (r)^2 (considering the starter ring gear at the outer radius), then the Power required for spin-up is about 53% of that required for the clutch. If spin-up takes 5 seconds, the clutch AND flywheel absorb about 3.3 hp; if 2 seconds, 8 hp.

Since the engine, clutch, and flywheel spin-up much more quickly in first gear, as compared to other gears, the power consumed by the rotational inertia of these components significantly reduces the net power available for vehicle acceleration.

Charlie Tolman
 
Nice simple analysis Charlie....should really help the non engineers. You were/are a University professor (ME) right?
 
Jay,

Thanks for the kind words.
My degree was in Physics, from the Univ. of Minnesota.

While I worked in industry for 40 years, I did teach a EE class at the U of M for 12 years, in their night-school program, which helped in funding the racing effort.

Charlie
 
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