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 Post subject: Hp and 2 litre ITB cars
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:14 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:59 am
Posts: 1389
Location: Spring Hill, FL.
Seems as tho the bigger engined ITB cars are continually excluded from HP.
All of the Prod L2 cars all have compression limits and cam limits to balance the VE. Please explain why the 2 ltre engines cant run at 11/1 compression and .425 valve lift and fit in ?
FWIW we have a listing for a Volvo 142 with a 1.8 engine. Did that ever come in the car?

IMHO, Cars we need to include in HP at L2 ; 142 Volvo, BMW 320 , 914 pork, . With stock throttle body and 11/1 compression/.425 lift . they should not destroy the class and may add some cars .

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Mike Ogren/Protech Racing, http://www.FWDracingguide.com http://www.ogren-engineering.com/ 352.428-8983 mogren@tampabay.rr.com


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:39 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:25 am
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Location: Stow, OH
All are already in F, as a 2L motor should be. There is no replacement for displacement. A 2L in H would indeed kill the class.

If they're noncompetitive in L2 trim in F, mess around with weight and maybe a 1/2 point of compression there vs. relegating to H.

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Jason Stine
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:20 am 
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Stiner0931 wrote:
All are already in F, as a 2L motor should be. There is no replacement for displacement. A 2L in H would indeed kill the class.

If they're noncompetitive in L2 trim in F, mess around with weight and maybe a 1/2 point of compression there vs. relegating to H.


Yes there is it’s called AIR which the 914 and the Volvo can’t get with the stock throttle body

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Les Chaney
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:40 am
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Location: Huntsville, AL
Seriously? A stock 914 2.0 engine from Porsche made 95fwhp, back in the 70s with some very poor induction setup. There is no way you are going to get a 2.0 with 10:1 compression and .425 cam lift to make much more than 120whp. That puts it right in line with a Datsun 510 with a LP engine. That is way too slow for FP. I would be surprised if you can make 180+whp required to be competitive in FP with the current regs, but I am not going to try. My 914 is going to be a street car with a 3.3 Suby flat six.

No the 2.0 isn't some sort of "class killer". If I remember right, my 914 back in the day did 118whp with a .500in cam, 9:1 compression, ported heads, 2mm over bore, etc exhaust system was garbage, but I didn't know much better at 20 years old. That was breathing through two 44IDFs with 36mm chokes. None of that is legal in FP nor would it be legal in HP. The 1.8 engine 914 is allowed at 2100lbs, why not let the 2.0 run at 2300lbs?

Kinda like the discussion a while about about the S12 Nissan 200SX. That was a 2.0 3 valve engine that from the factory made 110hp, out of a HUGE 2.0. That car should fit in HP just fine, but the 2.0 is a big scary number now. If you breathed on that engine, while still forcing it to breath through the stock induction system, maybe 10:1, .450 cam lift, no porting, that engine might get into the 150whp range. At 2300lbs or even ITB weight it won't be an overdog. But there is no way it can be competitive in FP without level 1 motor prep or at least alternate carbs instead of the OE FI.

What did Loshak's CRX make? 155whp?

There are a bunch of cars from the late 70s and early 80s that could fit well in HP, but gotta find someone crazy enough to do the leg work.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:11 pm 
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Why would someone looking at a new HP build not just go out and get a Toyota Yaris, it's a proven winner ?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:15 am 
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Jerry Lee Oleson wrote:
Why would someone looking at a new HP build not just go out and get a Toyota Yaris, it's a proven winner ?


A. Doing things the easy way is not consistent with class philosophy.

B. Even in Prod trim it still looks like a B Spec car.

:)


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:21 am 
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Jerry Lee Oleson wrote:
Why would someone looking at a new HP build not just go out and get a Toyota Yaris, it's a proven winner ?

Because Prod- and especially HP is a world of old, quirky cars nobody else wants to race. So instead of putting them in junkyards and moving on with life, cranky old men haul a half dozen rust buckets from a the back lot of that weird friend that never grew out of the 70s, and then try to find a way to make them go fast, all the while complaining about money and competitiveness when they have a car that can barely finish a 30 min race.
.....My obviously not-so-humble opinion.....

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:54 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:39 pm
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That's super funny, but you could also look at it this way.

HP is a class that has strong participation, as do all prod classes, has great parity between a broad range of car brands, ages and chassis types, and consistently delivers an enjoyable race at big events.

Yaris is a proven winner
Mazda 2 has become pretty competitive
Spitfire is very very (very) fast
Spridget is a proven front runner year after year
L1 Datsun is actually faster than everything else, but no one is noticing
A plethora of Hondas can compete - and owned the VIR podium
4 different VW models are competitive (and with their "strong" motor can nearly hang in draft with Datsun and Spitfire)

It's a great time to be racing in this class, and a ton of fun. (when we aren't getting knocked out by "faster" cars)

We just don't get respect because no one has figured out how to put Miatas in the class.

To the topic at hand, we do need to be careful about making significant changes to the class based on the wants of folks not actually racing here. That's not to say that "heads should asplode" if a new idea is suggested, but that we should tread a little lightly, and nurture all the good that we do have. One might suggest that some carefully researched spec line allowances to make 2 liter cars competitive in F might be a better approach. Air flow is the issue, find a bolt on alternate manifold, or throttle body. If that over shoots performance, manage it with weight, compression, cam lift and restrictors.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:39 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:24 am
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I agree 100% with Chris - well said!

Prod in general as a category, and H in particular as a class, are great places to play.

We have something of a culture of "whining" aka "lobbying for balance of performance" but overall it is a great group of folks and a cool mix of old and new which I think is unique in all of road racing.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:57 am
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Plus 2 to Chris's comments, great diversity and fun competition in H Prod.


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