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October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...
http://prodracing.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19580
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Author:  Larry Svaton [ Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

Jesse Prather wrote:
Disban B Spec!

WOW so Harris got the weight added to your car before the runoffs? I thought i still saw his car in your shop on your thursday broadcast.

Author:  dakar318 [ Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

I like the change. I wouldn’t worry a about the bigger wheels bigger brakes right now. Completely redesigning a modern brake system is a big barrier to entry to run a new car with big wheels.


H prod, B spec, and Formula V should all run in the same group together.

Seriously, passing a FV in a formula Mazda feels like it should be illegal.

Author:  Jesse Prather [ Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

Larry Svaton wrote:
Jesse Prather wrote:
Disban B Spec!

WOW so Harris got the weight added to your car before the runoffs? I thought i still saw his car in your shop on your thursday broadcast.


I'm joking!!

Author:  GT6 [ Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

dakar318 wrote:
I wouldn’t worry a about the bigger wheels bigger brakes right now. Completely redesigning a modern brake system is a big barrier to entry to run a new car with big wheels. .


Is this a joke???

Buying big wheels that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars and buying big brake kits that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars is NOT a barrier to entry.

Building an older car or keeping an older car competitive when these things are needed (because of class performance potential creep) ,but NOT sitting on the shelf IS a barrier to entry!

Author:  chois [ Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

I'm pretty sure it has to do with the integrated nature of modern vehicle control modules, stability control, ABS and physical braking systems.
If I were building a "modern" car I would definitely start by dumping the whole hydraulic system for the brakes for a dual master and pedal box setup to be sure they did what I want - but some of those systems talk to other parts of the car too, so you may well need to also dump the ECU for a standalone, which sounds obvious to a lot of us, but newer DI cars are a bit more challenging in this regard.

I can definitely see this becoming the new barrier to class growth over the next 5-10 years.

Author:  tschreyer [ Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

I had to SWAG some blanks but...

Average Model Year of Runoffs Entries by class:

EP: 1991
FP: 1983
HP: 1984

Now, some would say this is their very argument. But there is a large pool of cars well into the early 2000's that can be easily built without overriding complex electronics and systems, that everyone is skipping right over. While I agree, the complications surrounding these complex electronics will rear its head at some point, I don't agree that its in the next 5-10 years according to what history has shown for whats popular to build. To say that Prod is anywhere near relevant to new car markets or an age bracket that would entice someone right out of college solely on age of equipment is nuts. We're 35 years behind!


My car was built when I was age 2.

Author:  Matt93SE [ Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

tschreyer wrote:
I had to SWAG some blanks but...

Average Model Year of Runoffs Entries by class:

EP: 1991
FP: 1983
HP: 1984

Now, some would say this is their very argument. But there is a large pool of cars well into the early 2000's that can be easily built without overriding complex electronics and systems, that everyone is skipping right over. While I agree, the complications surrounding these complex electronics will rear its head at some point, I don't agree that its in the next 5-10 years according to what history has shown for whats popular to build. To say that Prod is anywhere near relevant to new car markets or an age bracket that would entice someone right out of college solely on age of equipment is nuts. We're 35 years behind!


My car was built when I was age 2.

Maybe this is the red herring?

Author:  tschreyer [ Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

I don't agree that it has anything to do with brake modification allowances.

I think a prod car takes a fair bit of money to optimize, that starting with a $10-$20k donor is not that realistic for most. It puts the package at a price point where I misewell just buy a professionally developed race car turn key. I actually think that the lure is that the donor is actually in the $500-$5000 range.

Author:  Al Seim [ Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

GT6 wrote:
dakar318 wrote:
I wouldn’t worry a about the bigger wheels bigger brakes right now. Completely redesigning a modern brake system is a big barrier to entry to run a new car with big wheels. .


Is this a joke???

Buying big wheels that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars and buying big brake kits that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars is NOT a barrier to entry.

Building an older car or keeping an older car competitive when these things are needed (because of class performance potential creep) ,but NOT sitting on the shelf IS a barrier to entry!


Something to keep in mind is that improved brakes soon reach a point of diminishing return. Unlike most other aspects of performance, brake performance is ultimately strictly limited by the tires and weight distribution. All of our cars have brakes that can lock up the tires, and I'm sure that all can do so for several laps in a row. Some then fall off due to overheating. Most (almost all?) cars can be made to brake hard for the whole race, sometimes by dint of exotic pads, lots of ducting, etc.

Once the brakes are improved to the point that they can be used hard for the whole race (which, again, the vast majority already can) then any further improvement is in feel and controllability (largely a matter of caliper stiffness) which is fairly minor in terms of lap times.

There is also a small gain to be had in terms of unsprung and especially rotating mass. That isn't huge and in any event massive wheels and rotors are going in the opposite direction.

As long as your car can stop hard the whole race, and the brakes have decent feel, there simply isn't much performance improvement to be had via the brakes.

Author:  dakar318 [ Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: October 2020 Fastrack - The Brake Rules...

GT6 wrote:
dakar318 wrote:
I wouldn’t worry a about the bigger wheels bigger brakes right now. Completely redesigning a modern brake system is a big barrier to entry to run a new car with big wheels. .


Is this a joke???

Buying big wheels that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars and buying big brake kits that are waiting on the shelf for modern cars is NOT a barrier to entry.

Building an older car or keeping an older car competitive when these things are needed (because of class performance potential creep) ,but NOT sitting on the shelf IS a barrier to entry!


Do you know whats not sitting on the shelf? A Prod mandated brake system that removes the ABS system with the correct size masters, lines, proportioning, and calipers with the right piston size. Not to mention that you need to completely rewire the car with a stand alone ecu because the factory ecu is no longer getting ABS/TC/Yaw data and is in limp mode. Think about how much money you have to spend before your car even has legal brakes...

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