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 Post subject: Re: Level 2 carburators?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:14 am 
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Al - You should also write a letter. You are very good at parsing out these rules and should submit exactly what you would like the wording to change to.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 2 carburators?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:15 am 
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Ron Bartell wrote:
Al - You should also write a letter. You are very good at parsing out these rules and should submit exactly what you would like the wording to change to.


I second Ron's motion

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 Post subject: Re: Level 2 carburators?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:02 am 
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Location: Stow, OH
chois wrote:
Ron Bartell wrote:
Al - You should also write a letter. You are very good at parsing out these rules and should submit exactly what you would like the wording to change to.


I second Ron's motion


+1 to that. Hopefully if anyone was exploiting the "typo" for L2 carb modifications, it gets shut down before the Runoffs.

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 Post subject: Re: Level 2 carburators?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:10 am 
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The big problem here - as I see it - is that the error/typo has been there for quite some time, was found (and IMO misinterpreted) and other changes were made to try to sort things out, but that did not. Resulting in the current mess wrt L1/L2 carb and throttle body rules.

My thoughts re fixing it:

A fair amount of digging through the archives of GCRs and FastTracks is required to validate my "theory" of how this has gone wrong, in order to make sure that the fix is fundamentally correct, fair, effective - and does not introduce new problems. If I am correct as to what has gone wrong, and the decsion is made to make a fundamental fix (ie changing drivetrain to powertrain) then other changes need to be made to go with this. The obvious one is to sort out the L1/L2 carb/TB issues. But I guarantee that a close read will find other things.

Thus a fundamental fix involves a lot of research, thought and probably discussion. And is realistically beyond the scope of writing a letter saying "change this sentence to read x instead of y". And maybe is too big a job to get done before the 2020 Runoffs.

So maybe the short term answer is a "patch" that explicitly addresses L1/L2 carb and throttle body prep, then have a look at the big picture on a longer timescale. On reflection, this almost has to be the right answer. My fear would be that it leaves the basic error in place, but that's a secondary consideration I suppose.


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 Post subject: Re: Level 2 carburators?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:22 am 
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Stiner0931 wrote:
chois wrote:
Ron Bartell wrote:
Al - You should also write a letter. You are very good at parsing out these rules and should submit exactly what you would like the wording to change to.


I second Ron's motion


+1 to that. Hopefully if anyone was exploiting the "typo" for L2 carb modifications, it gets shut down before the Runoffs.


The flip side of this is that if one takes the rules as currently written ("drivetrain" in those key sections) there is nothing in the rules allowing "airflow" mods to L1 carbs. That IMO would be the most likely "tech shed" explosion if nothing is done, eg L1 cars being found illegal due to carb mods.

Disclaimer - I haven't run an L1 car in many years, my HP VW is an L2 car where the rules specifically called for unmodified throttle body, or at least did when I prepped the car. Way back when, the (what is now) L1 rules were interpreted to allow extensive internal "port and polish" to carbs. SUs in particular could be, and often were, modified in ways that significantly improved airflow. Do I assume correctly that this is still common practice and considered legal in L1, current controversy aside?


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 Post subject: Re: Level 2 carburators?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:31 am 
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Here's an example of other issues -

Currently, with "drivetrain" in place, thermal barrier coatings are legal in the transmission and diff but NOT in the engine, by my readings. By my theory of "what went wrong" the intent was to legalize thermal barrier coatings in the engine ie powertrain. Am I correct that historically it was legal to use thermal barrier coatings in the engine, for instance valve heads, chambers and piston domes? (I've thought of using them many times, never have, but thought them legal except in forbidden zones like L2 ports and intake runners which can't be touched)


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 Post subject: Re: Level 2 carburators?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:35 am 
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I do see all the valid points that there may have been an accidental change in wording regarding "driveline" modifications being allowed that could permit carburetor modifications other than that expressly limited. I don't think rules changes should take place by error.

Not trying to sell anything, but instead of reacting that this changes the way things were always for Level 2 (since we called it level 2 or limited prep) couldn't we use this opportunity to look at what would be best for competition? Level 2 carb cars have won 1 in the last 10 runoffs based on what I can see. Hardly overdogs. With modern injection able to create complex mixture maps and the throttle plate size being the only hard parameter, shouldn't we consider what could be done with carbs to even the playing field even for level 2 ? I really don't think the wild modifications like early full prep cars would use in the past will work with lower compression, lower lift cams like the majority of L2 carb cars have anyway. Also, is it possible that the current wording was created thinking this same train of thought?

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 Post subject: Re: Level 2 carburators?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:33 am 
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The only issue there is that is major rules creep and defeats the purpose of "limited prep." I agree the older cars are at a disadvantage vs the modern injected cars, but as many have stated in previous posts... you choose your car for production. With that comes the advantages and disadvantages of that particular car.

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