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 Post subject: Re: Flares...
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 1:59 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:08 am
Posts: 768
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Good discussion.

Another question. On the blue Midget posted, if I measured the rear wheel opening at the bottom, should I expect the wheel opening on a MG Midget race car to be the same based on the flare wording? Could the opening be the same on a MG Midget as on a AH MK I bugeye and visa versa in HP? What about FP?

And another question, does the bumper need to be clearly identified or can it be molded into the fenders. Think carefully.

Gosh, are we doing home schooling? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Flares...
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2002 3:40 am
Posts: 720
Location: Mt. Juliet, TN
Here's a good article with pictures on how to change a rubber bumper Midget to a chrome bumper Midget. If you take off just the rubber bumper, it's not pretty. It has a wire mess where the grill is and the bumper brackets come all the out. To put a stock grill from pre 75 cars, you have to cut the bumper bracket from sticking out the front. You also have to fill in the big holes in each fender.

http://www.precisionapproachair.com/chrome-bumpers

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 Post subject: Re: Flares...
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:46 am
Posts: 201
Location: Howell, MI
FP Racer wrote:
Good discussion.

Another question. On the blue Midget posted, if I measured the rear wheel opening at the bottom, should I expect the wheel opening on a MG Midget race car to be the same based on the flare wording? Could the opening be the same on a MG Midget as on a AH MK I bugeye and visa versa in HP? What about FP?

And another question, does the bumper need to be clearly identified or can it be molded into the fenders. Think carefully.

Gosh, are we doing home schooling? :D


Good questions...All Sprites/Midgets MkI-IV are on the same spec-line so yes could be the answer. Logic should dictate to review it as the section of the car it's meant to represent. Can I run a square arch on a Bugeye rear? No, maybe, my brain hurts.

As for molding the bumper into fenders yes only if it was part of the fenders where originally molded/stamped/integrated into it or connected by the trim/covers. Otherwise we'd be changing the "basic body configuration" IMHO.

Let me twist this question some more...

Can I mold a non-integrated bumper into the body work, fenders, or air dam? Could an air dam and bumper be made to keep the appearance of stock and completely be closed out to the bodywork? Appearance remains as stock is key here.

I also think there could be some clarification as to what the difference is between an integrated bumper and a bumper cover. They are used in the rules in separate sentences addressing separate concerns. Is an integrated bumper = bumper cover? Can a bumper cover be replaced in its entirety with alternate material? If so it should probably be added to paragraph 2 with the hood, fenders, decklid.

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 Post subject: Re: Flares...
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 5:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:40 am
Posts: 444
Location: Huntsville, AL
When was the last car sold with a separate bumper? Maybe some A1 VWs? Maybe some 944s or BMWs from the mid 80s?

Pretty sure separate bumpers were no longer on cars manufactured after the mid 80s.

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 Post subject: Re: Flares...
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 10:43 am 
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Posts: 887
If the definition from the IT rules were used, "Integrated" really doesn't mean integrated in appearance, it means a separate cover over the structural member.

My 70s A1 VW Scirocco was built that way. I'm running the OEM bumper skin without the OEM heavy steel beam that was behind it. I don't think that tweaks to this rule affect me much, as I'm running the OEM bumper cover, just wanted to show an example of a transition period semi integrated bumper.

A1 Rabbit had a metal bumper, no cover.

The Scirocco, btw, unlike the Rabbit, looks awful (IMO) without the front bumper skin. Odd as the cars are generally so similar. The aero is likely better w/o the bumper but it looks terrible.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Flares...
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 11:02 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:24 am
Posts: 887
Here's a curiosity question - I don't have a picture but I remember seeing at least some Bugeye molded fiberglass front ends that have a "lump" on the front that I think is maybe supposed to represent the original metal bumper. Am I correct?

(Like the fender flare side profile rule, I see no advantage to anything approaching strict enforcement here, but it is interesting to discuss ramifications of the rules. Though the bumper rules if abused probably have more potential aero effect than the fender flare side profile rules.)


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 Post subject: Re: Flares...
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 1:15 pm 
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Location: Mt. Juliet, TN
If you look at the pictures of the stock '75 to '79' Midget, the grill is actually part of the bumper assembly

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 Post subject: Re: Flares...
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 1:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:48 am
Posts: 695
Location: Florida
What about this arrangement? Good or bad? Don't ask me about the 90 degree turn. Nothing that steep on Sebring.

Bob


Attachments:
13 Blue 001.jpg
13 Blue 001.jpg [ 318.22 KiB | Viewed 2024 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Flares...
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 3:12 pm 
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carshouston wrote:
I think what Jim is getting at is, show me the rule that allows you to flare the bumper.…
I guess the guys with earlier Midgets and Bug Eyes are left out because they don't have those big bumpers.

Darryl Saylor wrote:
Have the rules changed since Ron won his championships? I don't think they have, have they? You would think that would have been brought up and settled.
So, the verdict is that it is legal and compliant. There is a rule that allows me to do what I did. The rule has been in place since I won my Championships. It was legal then and it is legal now.

I don't really appreciate the attempt to impugn my integrity over a one-inch wide piece of meaningless horizontal fiberglass. The cars that I have owned have gone through over 25 prerace Runoffs tech sheds and numerous post-race teardowns. And no, we don't expect that just because it has been teched at the Runoffs that we assume that everything is legal. But you should know that of all of the Runoffs inspections and witch-hunts I have only had to fix two things. One was the cutout in back of the bugeye seat that spawned a rule change that is still in the GCR, and the other was the plugged intake manifold debacle that Buddy Frey? sprung on all of us in the late 80's and was subsequently allowed. I don't think that many of you can say the same about your experience. Jim's biggest concern with me has been that my motors whistle low. He has recently questioned the bumper thing but as we see he was wrong.

I never ran the $30 to $50 a gallon hot gas that many people ran before they tested for it. I had one guy tell me "it isn't cheating if they don't test for it and you don't get caught." Still cheating in my book My cars have been legal to the best of my knowledge and supported by rules for every modification that we have done. I did that because I was considered the benchmark for the Spridgets and if I was cheating they would not be able to make an informed opinion about how to handicap them.

As for the guys with the earlier Midgets and Bugeyes, they do the same thing with their bumpers so they aren't left out. The bugeye front ends typically have a bumper replica molded in and with the wheel wells being flared, the bumper would have to be widened to fit over it, just like mine. However in my case I have to run the complete fenders underneath as well as a metal center valance and radiator ducting adding an incredible amount of weight compared to a molded one-piece bonnet.


Attachments:
Linn Small.jpg
Linn Small.jpg [ 83.67 KiB | Viewed 2010 times ]

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Last edited by Ron Bartell on Mon May 11, 2020 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Flares...
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 6:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:48 am
Posts: 695
Location: Florida
You know, Ron has been running for what seems to be forever. I haven't heard or read anything anywhere that indicated he has had a single run in with the Tech folks. My car has run almost nothing but "nationals" since it was put on the track in 1974. It's present configuration was put together in the early '90s and is exactly the same now. There have been several molecules rearranged over the years due to immovable objects but it's the same. The bumper in the picture was put back together out of 3 pieces and has over 30 years of being mistreated. No one in Tech over the years it was on the national scene said anything about the bodywork. Seems to me the discussion is about nothing that really matters to anyone anywhere. Could be wrong but sure is a lot of conversation on a non subject.

Stay safe out there.

Bob

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