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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:40 am
Posts: 476
Location: Huntsville, AL
Protech Racing wrote:
Greg , The new cars have decent brakes . They dont need any help.
The old cars with old guy owners, have crap brakes but we somehow got them to work .
The guys that need to have real brakes can go help GTL .


If you don't want to race a 1957 Old Car, you need to go to another class? What a great attitude to attract new racers to your class.

I don't know more than a handful of people under the age of 30 that has any interest in racing a 1990 or older, VW, Honda, Nissan, BMW, etc in Prod. They just aren't interesting to people who grew up with programmable fuel injection, engine swaps, modern 4 valve cross flow heads, disk brakes, advanced suspension design, etc. Look at what people are building to run in Gridlife and other series like that. They certainly aren't building 1985 VW Golfs in mass. They are building Civics, Mazdas, some Nissans, that weirdo in the Neon, S2000s, Integras, E36s, E30s, E46s, 350/370zs, BRZs, etc. (yes I know some of those aren't classed in Prod) Hell it would be neat to see a guy running a Pontiac thing/Saturn Sky

Some of those would never come over to wheel to wheel, but some of them would be completely interested in making the leap if the class didn't look like the Beat Up Old English Car Road Show. (I know, I'm exercising some writer's exaggeration). The current EP field is chocked full of cool stuff to a young guy looking to get into road racing. BMW Z3s, the 944, RX7s, Miatas, Integras, BMWs, etc.

In a day in age when normal street cars come with 700hp, why would "tuners" want to build something slow just to race in a class with a bunch of "old" cars? Many of those cars fit in STL and that class is experiencing serious interest and they run times similar to EP on R-comps with real brakes.

Mike you keep saying "those guys can go help GTL"? Those cars are about as relatable to a normal car guy as a dirt late model is to a real street car. They are tube frame cars with fiberglass bodies. They aren't making them in ridiculous numbers any more. There are maybe three people still building new GTL chassis and bodies? Yet a guy can go pick up a RX8, BMW Z3, Acura Integra, Honda S2000, BMW 3 series, BRZ, Focus, Civic, etc, bolt on some go fast parts off the shelf and be racing with some pretty fast stuff fairly quickly.

Where does a guy who has never built a tube frame race car go, to get his quickchange rear axle custom fit for his Preston Chassis? Who will build the one off custom fiberglass body for the tube chassis BRZ that really ain't a BRZ at all. Where can he run that car except in SCCA GTL should he want to try one of those other organizations?

Prod has many really great features that will attract people that are interested in building a car the way they want to build it and using real race car parts (except real brakes :lol: ). How do you attract more guys that run in NASA, Gridlife, etc when they have to throw away their brakes just to come play?

In conclusion to my novel tonight, I like what Prod has to offer as a general class with a couple of exceptions to the silly brake rules. I have been a Prod Groupie since my first Runoffs in 2005 with the 914 contingent, when Mark won FP in Kirby's car and Eric got second in EP with a 914-6. Even though life got in the way over the last 15 years, I am ready to finish my new car and get out there and mix it up (with real brakes). I want the class to grow, I want to see neat newer and older cars show up and race. Give everyone brakes commiserate with the capabilities of the cars, not keep everyone in 1971 with the same old thing we had back then.

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Brett W
Huntsville, AL


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:33 am 
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Location: Spring Hill, FL.
The class will continue to grow as long new rules dont make for obsoleting current cars.
A brake option on the spec line , including a weight adjustment , so that we all dont have to run out and swap, should cover your concerns while not pissing off the old guys.

I believe that new cars should be added with conservative weights so that the same does not occur. Weight comes out easier then get added .

I also share your opinion of GTL and tried to get HProd cars listed ,minus some weight . Those guys want nothing to do with it .

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:57 am 
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Take a look at the cars that are fast in qualifying, then see who drops back as the laps go on. Greg Ira was as fast as about anyone at VIR. You can't tell me brakes on that car do not limit his chance to win. There is no good reason for any EP car to be on solid disc rotors given what has been placed in the class.

PS. Kevin can I have my wing back??? :D :D :D :D :D


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:08 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:58 am
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Brett W wrote:
Protech Racing wrote:
Greg , The new cars have decent brakes . They dont need any help.
The old cars with old guy owners, have crap brakes but we somehow got them to work .
The guys that need to have real brakes can go help GTL .


If you don't want to race a 1957 Old Car, you need to go to another class? What a great attitude to attract new racers to your class.

I don't know more than a handful of people under the age of 30 that has any interest in racing a 1990 or older, VW, Honda, Nissan, BMW, etc in Prod. They just aren't interesting to people who grew up with programmable fuel injection, engine swaps, modern 4 valve cross flow heads, disk brakes, advanced suspension design, etc. Look at what people are building to run in Gridlife and other series like that. They certainly aren't building 1985 VW Golfs in mass. They are building Civics, Mazdas, some Nissans, that weirdo in the Neon, S2000s, Integras, E36s, E30s, E46s, 350/370zs, BRZs, etc. (yes I know some of those aren't classed in Prod) Hell it would be neat to see a guy running a Pontiac thing/Saturn Sky

Some of those would never come over to wheel to wheel, but some of them would be completely interested in making the leap if the class didn't look like the Beat Up Old English Car Road Show. (I know, I'm exercising some writer's exaggeration). The current EP field is chocked full of cool stuff to a young guy looking to get into road racing. BMW Z3s, the 944, RX7s, Miatas, Integras, BMWs, etc.

In a day in age when normal street cars come with 700hp, why would "tuners" want to build something slow just to race in a class with a bunch of "old" cars? Many of those cars fit in STL and that class is experiencing serious interest and they run times similar to EP on R-comps with real brakes.

Mike you keep saying "those guys can go help GTL"? Those cars are about as relatable to a normal car guy as a dirt late model is to a real street car. They are tube frame cars with fiberglass bodies. They aren't making them in ridiculous numbers any more. There are maybe three people still building new GTL chassis and bodies? Yet a guy can go pick up a RX8, BMW Z3, Acura Integra, Honda S2000, BMW 3 series, BRZ, Focus, Civic, etc, bolt on some go fast parts off the shelf and be racing with some pretty fast stuff fairly quickly.

Where does a guy who has never built a tube frame race car go, to get his quickchange rear axle custom fit for his Preston Chassis? Who will build the one off custom fiberglass body for the tube chassis BRZ that really ain't a BRZ at all. Where can he run that car except in SCCA GTL should he want to try one of those other organizations?

Prod has many really great features that will attract people that are interested in building a car the way they want to build it and using real race car parts (except real brakes :lol: ). How do you attract more guys that run in NASA, Gridlife, etc when they have to throw away their brakes just to come play?

In conclusion to my novel tonight, I like what Prod has to offer as a general class with a couple of exceptions to the silly brake rules. I have been a Prod Groupie since my first Runoffs in 2005 with the 914 contingent, when Mark won FP in Kirby's car and Eric got second in EP with a 914-6. Even though life got in the way over the last 15 years, I am ready to finish my new car and get out there and mix it up (with real brakes). I want the class to grow, I want to see neat newer and older cars show up and race. Give everyone brakes commiserate with the capabilities of the cars, not keep everyone in 1971 with the same old thing we had back then.


Everything you are talking about already exists... The track day Bros with wings and gridlife swap kids can go into STL and STU (STU needs more cars). Already see ST and GTL cars trying Gridlife, so we know they are compatible.

No reason to upset a healthy Prod group with brakes when it won't get the engine swap aero crowd in anyway.

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99 HP Toyota Yaris
2005-2008 SCCA Solo National Champion
2017-2018 SCCA Runoffs Champion


Last edited by Jason@SportsCar on Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:23 am 
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Steve Eckerich wrote:
Take a look at the cars that are fast in qualifying, then see who drops back as the laps go on. Greg Ira was as fast as about anyone at VIR. You can't tell me brakes on that car do not limit his chance to win. There is no good reason for any EP car to be on solid disc rotors given what has been placed in the class.

PS. Kevin can I have my wing back??? :D :D :D :D :D


His brakes were good enough to win at Road America and Daytona. You sure it wasn't wrong tire choice?

Surprised no one has bothered to try and get the FC wing back. If it was standard on the base trim car you should have it. Find the documentation and write a letter. Could be the reason no one has bothered is it's more drag than it's worth. Does seem like the recent weight break helped on the FC since one was on the podium for the first time in years.

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2005-2008 SCCA Solo National Champion
2017-2018 SCCA Runoffs Champion


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:44 pm
Posts: 43
Location: Maryville,TN (Knoxville area)
Econo cars of the 80's had econo brakes. With the best of brake rotors, pads and fluid are good for 5 or so laps then it's downhill.
Eventually something's going to happen and it's not pretty.
Most of the newer cars have well designed braking systems as part of their package.
I think a brake upgrade is a great idea. 4 puck aluminum calipers with ferrous rotors. The wheel size limits the rotors etc.
As far as costs these are all bolt-on items readily available. This may level the playing field in some classes.
And just how did the Spridgets get the MGB brake upgrade? Must have been a better lobbying group.
Would like to see a proposal.


Tim Pitts
#11 HP Golf


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:18 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:39 pm
Posts: 487
Not sure why I'd wade back in, but...

It is definitely not possible to say that this a "bolt on", with the wide variety of cars in the PCS.
In my case (and yours) we will need to machine the existing caliper slides off the bearing carrier, or source a new bearing carrier, machine in the mounting surface and holes and THEN bolt on a caliper.

I don't see brakes fading during a race as a thing for our cars, but I am sure there are some that do. However, I'd argue that the caliper in and of itself is not going to change that, and that there are plenty of allowances already to address brake cooling. I totally get that some cars have issues, and they tend to have a spec line allowance - as they should.

That said, listening to all the discussion here and elsewhere my guess is that this goes through with OEM diameter rotors. When that happens, I'll probably convert to "race" calipers to save money on machining the good pads to fit my 80s econo car. It won't be first on my list because I have enough "inventory" to get through a season, but in the end it saves money for me.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:38 am 
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Location: Maryville,TN (Knoxville area)
Let me elaborate on the "bolt-on"
Mk3 knuckles are identical in dimensions with the exception of the caliper attachment.

This allows many different axial or radial mount calipers, all bolt-on.
The calipers, hats,rotors,floaters can all be easily sourced.
Other marque should have the abilities.

I'm not saying this will be easy or cheap but it will be effective.

Tim Pitts
#11 HP Golf


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:31 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:21 am
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My understanding is that brackets can be made for these calipers so you don't have to modify the upright. That said, I wouldn't know about all cars maybe some would need modifications.

Here's an example that fits my car.

https://rallyroad.net/collections/brake ... 96calipers

I'll (not so candidly) say that I'm in favor of the rule change.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:38 pm 
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Posts: 206
Location: MILWAUKEE
I would like to be able to use a different caliper on my '88 CRX. Can not buy a new one. I can buy remanufactured ones and the core are all so worn out on the mounting lug slider that you can get the kind pedal feel you want.
I don't need to go to a Wilwood or other "racing" caliper. Just let me bolt on a Honda part that is new.

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