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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:51 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:59 am
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Location: Spring Hill, FL.
Please discourage any change to the current Prod brakes rules . The BOP is pretty good as is ,(other than a little reward weight ;) )

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Mike Ogren/Protech Racing, http://www.FWDracingguide.com http://www.ogren-engineering.com/ 352.428-8983 mogren@tampabay.rr.com


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:24 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:24 am
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Disagree. 90-95% (?) of the Prod cars have adequate brakes, a few (including my 1600cc Scirocco) have inadequate brakes.

By adequate I mean you can use them hard for the duration of a sprint race on pretty much any track without pad fade, given decent race pads.

For those 90-95% any performance gains are minimal, they are due to better feel, not having to nurse the brakes. And the convenience of buying reasonably priced pads and parts.

I really don't see that BOP is much affected by this.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:40 am
Posts: 468
Location: Huntsville, AL
Can we please stop using the brakes as a BOP situation. No other race organization on the planet does this. NASCAR, F1, Trans AM, World Challenge, Gran AM, Chump Car, etc. They all allow real race cars to have real race car brakes. You don't have to allow Carbon rotors, MMC calipers, etc to give Production competitors a REAL solid brake option that allows them to race to the finish line without brake failure.

We all drive real race cars with insane levels of mechanical grip. We are well beyond the OE levels of braking performance. We have cars design 40+ years ago racing at 2200lbs with 9.4in solid rotors. What the hell is wrong with us? :x

We as a group have the ability to create a rule set that allows a reasonably priced brake package for everyone. When you can buy Wilwood race calipers, VENTED race rotors and some hardware for less than the cost of a set of race tires, there is no reason for sticking with that stupid rule about using the stock calipers. After all we allow every other part of the brake system to use aftermarket race parts

I should be mad about this rule as I spent last year designing and building some bad ass DLC coated Titanium pistons and lightening the stock calipers because of this stupid rule, but I will happily set these on the shelf and install some real race car parts.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:25 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2002 6:52 pm
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Location: Topeka, Kansas
I'm also 100% against using brake performance as a part of BOP in production. The minimal if any change this would make can easily be adjusted properly in other ways. Some people are WAY overthinking this.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:08 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:01 am
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Tires and weight dictate breaking distance. Giving everyone vented rotors and 4 piston calipers just levels the playing field. Just use some common sense with diameter spec and limit material of caliper to aluminum, no exotic metals.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:16 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:21 am
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i'm for
1) STOCK sized, vented rotors for all
2) max four piston calipers, no mods to the spindles/uprights (intermediate mounting plates seem ok)

Just the drop in cost for pads and rotors will basically pay calipers in a season or two.

Yes, some of your competitors ALREADY have four-piston calipers as stock. They will see less benefit than the rest of us.

I'm just super tired of spending $500+ for one set of front/rear pads. The same pad material on a nice caliper is half that. Rotors are cheap too.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:23 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:54 am
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only issue with Bill's comment is that some cars will require upright modification to mounting ears in order to make them fit.
Wilwood superlites have a fairly large mounting ear, and using 11.75" rotors on my STU car required cutting off the spindle mounting ears and moving them over about 1/2". I can imagine needing something similar to mount something smaller. like the 9.75" rotors on the RX7.. likely the standard 4 piston Superlites wouldn't be appropriate caliper for that car, would need to stick with a dynalite or possibly go to a radial mount design.
"no upright or spindle modifications other than those required to accommodate alternate caliper mounting may be performed. creative use of those modifications is not cause for otherwise prohibited modification."

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Houston Region
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:40 am 
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Matt93SE wrote:
only issue with Bill's comment is that some cars will require upright modification to mounting ears in order to make them fit.
Wilwood superlites have a fairly large mounting ear, and using 11.75" rotors on my STU car required cutting off the spindle mounting ears and moving them over about 1/2". I can imagine needing something similar to mount something smaller. like the 9.75" rotors on the RX7.. likely the standard 4 piston Superlites wouldn't be appropriate caliper for that car, would need to stick with a dynalite or possibly go to a radial mount design.
"no upright or spindle modifications other than those required to accommodate alternate caliper mounting may be performed. creative use of those modifications is not cause for otherwise prohibited modification."


Interesting. Be sure and write in if a rule suggestion comes out.

I am used to seeing these things on BMWs (which is why I was thinking no mods to the uprights)

https://burkhart-engineering.com/54299en


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:32 am 
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Yeah, those are the radial mount calipers. radial mounts open options on some cars for that exact reason. I wish I had photos of the STU car when I started the stuff on the rear of the car. but as I said, the caliper mounts sat directly where the upright mounting tabs were. I sliced them off with a band saw and relocated them about 1/2" horizontally. voila. other people used larger 13" rotors front and rear (more rotating weight, unnecessary extra heat capacity for a 200hp car), but you could then use the same rotor and pads front and rear, adjusting bias with piston and master cylinder sizes. great for the endurance guys and spares in the box.

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Houston Region
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:40 am
Posts: 468
Location: Huntsville, AL
Matt93SE wrote:
only issue with Bill's comment is that some cars will require upright modification to mounting ears in order to make them fit.
Wilwood superlites have a fairly large mounting ear, and using 11.75" rotors on my STU car required cutting off the spindle mounting ears and moving them over about 1/2". I can imagine needing something similar to mount something smaller. like the 9.75" rotors on the RX7.. likely the standard 4 piston Superlites wouldn't be appropriate caliper for that car, would need to stick with a dynalite or possibly go to a radial mount design.
"no upright or spindle modifications other than those required to accommodate alternate caliper mounting may be performed. creative use of those modifications is not cause for otherwise prohibited modification."


Quote:
All types of suspensions can modify the brake caliper mounting portion of the spindle/bearing
carrier, if necessary to fit an approved alternate brake caliper.


Oh look, already legal. :D

You also bring up another reason my proposal set out the use of a decent size common dirt track type rotor for each class. Giving a 11.75 rotor to HP and FP stops people from having issues with picking a rotor caliper combination that fit inside their wheels.

Another though I just had based on what Bill said, does it really help a guy to get a 4piston caliper and then slap it on his now vented 9in rotor? Are we racing go karts or real cars? If you object to the generic rotor size, how about allowing each class to use a rotor equivalent to the largest rotor in the class? That would still be 12.8 for EP, 11.8 for FP and looks like 10.9 for HP.

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