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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:43 am 
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I added a request to the system, to adjust either the GCR or Prod regs to remove the need for clips for "adhesive-bonded" OE windshields.

In the meantime I'll probably dust off the rivnut tool. Damn, I love that thing...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:50 am 
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Greg Amy wrote:
I added a request to the system, to adjust either the GCR or Prod regs to remove the need for clips for "adhesive-bonded" OE windshields.

In the meantime I'll probably dust off the rivnut tool. Damn, I love that thing...


Rivnut tools are my jam.

I'm also confused what "bolted to the frame" could possibly mean. Windshield frame?

So I have a polycarbonate windshield, not only is it rivnuted to the windshield frame, I've added clips too. Sounds like I don't need both??!


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:54 am 
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Matt93SE wrote:
chois wrote:
Yep.
When I was doing my build, I was surprised to see that I had to add clips to a stock windshield that I couldn’t remove with a sledgehammer.

what's good for cars in the 60s must still be good for cars today.... :whistle:

By-product of trying to encompass and balance 70 years worth of automotive technology and rules-making into one category and rulebook. Seems like such a simple task, that people like to bemoan, until they're actually tasked with it, or it makes an attempt to encroach on what's in their garage. ;)

Greg Amy wrote:
I added a request to the system, to adjust either the GCR or Prod regs to remove the need for clips for "adhesive-bonded" OE windshields.

In the meantime I'll probably dust off the rivnut tool. Damn, I love that thing...

The problem is, I'm not sure something could be started now, and be enacted by this years Runoffs. Next PAC call is 4.5 weeks from now, and CRB call is two weeks after that. Everyone needs to remember that this isn't some new wording or anything that's popping up right now. It's been the wording for as long as I can remember. Does it not make sense in today's age? Debatable. Should it be looked at again? Probably. But it's not new; quite the opposite, actually.

blamkin86 wrote:
I'm also confused what "bolted to the frame" could possibly mean. Windshield frame?

So I have a polycarbonate windshield, not only is it rivnuted to the windshield frame, I've added clips too. Sounds like I don't need both??!

Frame/car/unibody/metally bits. If yours is rivnuted to the windshield frame, you're all good, and don't need the clips, but it doesn't hurt either. I ran both for many years. As someone pointed out earlier, I think it would be safe to assume that the requirement for clips or positive mechanical fastners ("bolted to frame"), is probably due to many decades of automotive production that didn't glue windshields in, but rather held them in with rubber gaskets. Those types of installs could blow out the front if the car spun or some other massive change in cabin pressure occurred. Hence the need for clips, even on a stock windshield. Another instance of Prod rules needing to encompass 70 years worth of automotive design.

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kevin

ruckracing honda's:
'15 & '10 Runoffs FP Champion
'10, '09, & '08 ARRC ITA/ITB Champion


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:53 am 
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kruck wrote:
or some other massive change in cabin pressure occurred. Hence the need for clips, even on a stock windshield


Two bean burritos Saturday night -> Massive change in cabin pressure for Sunday race.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:25 am 
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blamkin86 wrote:
kruck wrote:
or some other massive change in cabin pressure occurred. Hence the need for clips, even on a stock windshield


Two bean burritos Saturday night -> Massive change in cabin pressure for Sunday race.

Tighten down those belts...

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kevin

ruckracing honda's:
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:32 am 
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Is this going to be someone's "gotcha" for the Runoffs technical inspections...?

blamkin86 wrote:
Rivnut tools are my jam.

There's some cool tools that really rock my boat. In addition to the rivnut tool, the Deutch wire connector tool is next in line. And strangely, I even like my safety wire pliers. There's others...at least I can admit such strange proclivities in places like this...the family, well, they just don't understand...

kruck wrote:
The problem is, I'm not sure something could be started now, and be enacted by this years Runoffs. Next PAC call is 4.5 weeks from now, and CRB call is two weeks after that. Everyone needs to remember that this isn't some new wording or anything that's popping up right now. It's been the wording for as long as I can remember.

Yeah. They *might* be able to push it through as an E&O, but otherwise it's a rules change, subject to BoD approval and implementation in the next rules season. If'n we'd noticed it sooner...

Oddly, Super Touring has almost identical glass allowances (I used Prod as a basis for writing them) yet they approved ST not required to have windshield clips per GCR 9.3.54...I wonder if that has something to do with ST only allowing cars 1985 and later?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:34 am 
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I've received several personal emails concerning this. It's not up to me to "interpret" a rule.

One asked is Dzus fasteners would suffice. I answered it says bolt. And how do I determine what kind of glue has been used if any?

It's really not up to me to figure out what the GCR means. I go by what it says. If the Stewards want to interpret what it says like the Miata w/s wiper panel, that's their prerogative not mine. What I do say about that is the stock Miata is not sealed at the w/s wiper thus it better not be sealed when you R & R. And it's real easy for me to go find an example in the paddock of what stock is!

Glad I posted this.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 5:38 am 
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FP Racer wrote:
Glad I posted this.


Me too. Good work.

I know it’s minutiae, but maybe it’s time to consolidate all these rules about headlights, trim, bumper parts, cowling, marker lights - anything external that is not glass or bodywork.

Too many ideas out there about what you can and can’t do.

Please get rid of the gotchas!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:33 am 
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I think people forget that there's a whole other section to the rulebook that you have to be compliant to as well, outside of the specific Prod section.

70 years of rules making, to 70 years worth of automobiles, done by three levels of committee's, whose members are routinely rolling in and out, and no single person ever has the power or ability to "just clean this sh*t up".

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ruckracing honda's:
'15 & '10 Runoffs FP Champion
'10, '09, & '08 ARRC ITA/ITB Champion


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:50 am 
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kruck wrote:
...and no single person ever has the power or ability to "just clean this sh*t up".

I disagree, Kevin. One of the first things I did when I joined the Super Touring committee was to go in there and clean/rearrange the whole category regs. It was an ugly mish-mash of parts pulled here and there from Improved Touring, World Challenge, some GT and Prod, other places, with no sense of consistency. Created a new common section with separate STO/STU/STL sub-sections, pulled out redundant items from all three into the common section, removed references that were redundant to the GCR, etc. Added all the tables for the inevitable "what about me??" allowances (the beginning of the end :)).

Spent something like 6 months of Fastracks to implement it all, bit by bit. Had a general plan of action and took a section each month to the STAC for approval, then to the CRB which approved everything on E&Os (no rules changes).

Having recently entered Prod and starting to pay attention to the regs, I'm finding that while it's not nearly as bad at ST was the Prod category regs are showing its long-term evolutionary roots. It could use some cleaning up and consistency, all it takes it time and desire.

It's inevitable that over time that the bit-by-bit evolution will result in messes. Every once in a while you just gotta empty out everything from the garage, clean it all up, and then rearrange it back in desired order.


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