prodracing.com

Unofficial SCCA Production Racing Forum
It is currently Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:41 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: MX5 Cup car in EP
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 3:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:31 pm
Posts: 663
So I get why you EP guys out west would not care about this new car being in small bore as you already run in an alphabet soup races anyway due to low car counts. But in the Central and Eastern divisions where EP is already a healthy class, it begs the question why would you want to run your fiberglass bodied cars with a full on 2400 lb steel bodied full crash bumpered car. I get that the CRB never asked for your input and skipped the normal rules process. But why aren't you guys circling the wagons. Waiting for the first few cars to get wrecked?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MX5 Cup car in EP
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 9:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:01 am
Posts: 2590
Location: Belmont, CA
zChris, We get it, that the Mazda Miata has been a double edge sword with SCCA. Some say it saved the club, and some say it killed IT.

It used to be hugh here on the Left Coast. In San Francisco Region, we used to have 2 run groups just for IT cars. Group 8 was ITC and ITA, and Group 9 was ITS and ITB. We used to have 50 car fields in both of these groups. The Maita has basically killed ITS, ITB, and ITC here. The double, and triple dipping might be great for the Regions, and great for a driver or rentor, that you could drive your SM in 3-4 classes. It reduces your total track time cost, but at what a price? Like you said, nobody else enjoys playing bumper cars with them.

This begs the question, why not let GTL and prod cars run in STL or STU?

The fact that they only want "newer" clars in STL and STU speaks volumes of the mind set of the BoD and CRB. Basically they are saying, we're going to do anything that Mazda asks. Just look at the new FE2 cars and the Pro Mazda FA cars, running sealed Mazda motors. How long will it be when the 4th Gen of Spec Racer has a Mazda powerplant?

I have nothing against Mazda, and their goal to take market share of club racing, but what about all the other marques?

Maybe this move by Mazda will wake up Chevy, Ford, NISSAN, Honda, VW, KIA, Mini, BMW, to start upping their game to also gain some exposure and market share.

I wrote my letter stating, that the car is already classed in Tx so why also classify it in Production.

Why don't we stop kidding ourselves and rename the club to Mazda Sports Car Club of America.

_________________
Tim Linerud
#95 GTL VW Rabbit GTI
2014 Runoffs Sunoco Hard Charger - GTL
2016 Western Conference GTL Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MX5 Cup car in EP
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 1:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:01 am
Posts: 207
Yeah, damn Mazda for producing cars that are durable, fast, and fun to drive. And to add insult to injury they want to give cash away AND sell parts for a reasonable price??? Food and help at the Runoffs? That's just too much.

Mazda needs to back off and build and sell shitboxes that very few will bother to run. That will get them to rethink their involvement in club racing... and as a club we will be sooo much better off for it....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MX5 Cup car in EP
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 1:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:08 am
Posts: 599
Location: Atlanta, Ga
A former Regional Executive of one of SCCA's largest and most successful Regions always said:
I will not be bound by the rules I create.

Does that sound familiar?

_________________
Jim Creighton
CARS Tour DoR
SEDiv SARRC Administrator
V8 Road Racing Series Administrator
Runoffs Line Chief Tech Prod cars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MX5 Cup car in EP
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 9:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:55 am
Posts: 123
zChris wrote:
So I get why you EP guys out west would not care about this new car being in small bore as you already run in an alphabet soup races anyway due to low car counts. But in the Central and Eastern divisions where EP is already a healthy class, it begs the question why would you want to run your fiberglass bodied cars with a full on 2400 lb steel bodied full crash bumpered car. I get that the CRB never asked for your input and skipped the normal rules process. But why aren't you guys circling the wagons. Waiting for the first few cars to get wrecked?


I think if you read the rules you will find that IT cars are allowed to run with IT rules in their respective Production classes. Before I had a fuel cel in my 2nd Gen RX7 I did just that. Won a couple of races in fact and even lapped Real E Production cars with their wide fenders and slicks with my old DOT tires. Its 2680 lbs has the full strong bumpers and will run with any MX5 Cup car.



Having said that. It does seem like letting that one car be legal as is from another series is a terrible precedent in Production. It makes sense in STL and STU and Touring as there are other series out there and that is just giving them a place to race in SCCA. Letting IT cars run is fair as they are not going to be competitive and it clearly says the intent is to allow IT car owners to run in the majors to see what it is like with the idea that maybe they will further develop the car which should be a good thing for the club. But my concern has nothing to do with the car themselves or the drivers from that series being unsafe.

_________________
Rob Garrison

FP Mazda Miata
IT7 RX7
2nd Gen STL EP RX7


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MX5 Cup car in EP
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 9:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:31 pm
Posts: 663
Tim, my issue would be that the CRB ignored there own rules making process. It has nothing to do with it being a Mazda or a Miata. And the whole slicks/fiberglass vs dot's/steel cars is a problem. I have seen in my 25 long years in this club the CRB run rough shod over us drivers time and again. And many others have left the club because of it. I am again reconsidering were I spend my money. And dhrmx5 isn't 5pm a little early to be drinking.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MX5 Cup car in EP
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 10:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:01 am
Posts: 2590
Location: Belmont, CA
zChris, I agree. There have been lots of examples of the BoD just ignoring the rules that we all are supposed to follow.

Rank has it's privilege, and it alive and well in SCCA.

Vote with your voice, letters to the CRB, and your entry fee. Like Curtis has stated, maybe going to a vintage organization might bring some more "fun" back to this sport.

_________________
Tim Linerud
#95 GTL VW Rabbit GTI
2014 Runoffs Sunoco Hard Charger - GTL
2016 Western Conference GTL Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MX5 Cup car in EP
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 4:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:18 pm
Posts: 356
As an FP driver, I love small bore prod group, so help me understand what your main complaint(s) are with the Cup Car classification

BOD?
CRB?
Prod Advisory comm?
DOT tires (share/overlay data with a top DOT guy :shock: )?
steel bodies?
stock bumpers?
race organizer's race groupings?
Mazda?
Miatas?
Spec miatas?
Cup car is 3 seconds off EP pace?
IT Cars in prod?
IT Cars in IT?
Contingency?
Mazdas runoffs party?
seriers/track sponsorship?
Newer cars?
Newer cars that are approximately 25 years old?
Cars approximately 2400lbs or more?
Mazda contingency for the SVRA miata class?
The Corolla that just landed in HP?
New cars classed in a class different than you compete?
Pro Drivers?
DHRMX5's drinking start time?

most of these concerns seem flawed to me... although the top three are people... so they're not perfect...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MX5 Cup car in EP
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 6:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:08 am
Posts: 1177
Location: Philly
I dont know how many times this needs to be said before someone who likes this idea acknowledges it. The primary objection is that this is a second run group for a car that's already properly classed in Touring. We can not and should not give every car multiple run groups. That will make a major mess of things. Should we allow all of T3 and T4 to run in small bore slicks? Why just the Global MX5?

I've watched several Global MX5 Cup races. Without exception, they were crash fests.

These cars will make their lap times differently from Small Bore Slicks cars. Which will make them screw up races for legit cars.

As a general principle, I'm tired of the bitchy self interested racers getting whatever they want (esp when it's at others expense) when they whine. Having BS in Small Bore Slicks is the result of a couple of very wealthy arrive-and-drive guys insisting that they be allowed to race in both T1 and T2. The prep shops carry a lot of weight and they made this happen. T2 got moved into small bore DOT and so BS got moved into small bore slicks.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MX5 Cup car in EP
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 7:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:18 pm
Posts: 356
disquek wrote:
I dont know how many times this needs to be said before someone who likes this idea acknowledges it. The primary objection is that this is a second run group for a car that's already properly classed in Touring. We can not and should not give every car multiple run groups. That will make a major mess of things. Should we allow all of T3 and T4 to run in small bore slicks? Why just the Global MX5?

I've watched several Global MX5 Cup races. Without exception, they were crash fests.

These cars will make their lap times differently from Small Bore Slicks cars. Which will make them screw up races for legit cars.

As a general principle, I'm tired of the bitchy self interested racers getting whatever they want (esp when it's at others expense) when they whine. Having BS in Small Bore Slicks is the result of a couple of very wealthy arrive-and-drive guys insisting that they be allowed to race in both T1 and T2. The prep shops carry a lot of weight and they made this happen. T2 got moved into small bore DOT and so BS got moved into small bore slicks.


So hopefully we can have a constructive conversation... Below, is my twisted take on all the points you brought up. And, in the end, we will probably just disagree.

My understanding which may be wrong, is that it can't run in tourning in Global MX5 form... The non-DOT tire thing gets them tossed in Touring?

Is double dipping bad? I ran my FP car in FP and EP one year... I got a ton of track time, and my results in E were fine. Perhaps my best year of racing. I actually had a couple races I'll remember for a long time. One at hallett when I had to start from back when my cool suit shorted out and we had to fix stuff on the grid and work our way up. and... another at HPT with the RX7 that won the rain runoffs at road America about 5 +/- years ago... It was a great battle between my handling and his power... Double dipping got STL off to a great start, now the 3rd(?) biggest class, and it's almost all true STL cars now with.... Hopefully, Prod can recruit IT and ND mx5 drivers with such results! I love seeing prod at the top in participation numbers and want it to go even higher. That means keeping current cars happy and bringing in new blood...

I assume several T4 cars are already Prod legal as they run now... Maybe some T3 as well, but I didn't go look. I'm pretty sure the global MX5 got classed because the prod advisory group got a letter requesting it and they recommended it to the CRB...

I haven't seen a "recent" GMX5 race... So i will not comment on that series... But don't you believe that all pro (feeder) series are more aggressive? Don't we have other pro based cars classed in other classes? Besides, contact is a different issue than car classification. The last three cars that hit me were GTL at Mid-O, VW (runoffs), and Miata (runoffs, with a non miata driver). All three damaged my car. On the other hand, I race nose to tail with Eric all the live long day! He never leaves me alone... there is always his red car... It haunts me... I'm looking for races I know he will not go too... I think he likes it.... I think he lets me pass him just so he can try and pass me back... I did very lightly bump into his rear bumper at Kansas 3 years ago when my brakes glazed one lap... not even a scuff. I don't know that we have hit otherwise, but I'm sure it's coming. We'll be in the weeds together soon enough... Too close too often, but it will not be intentional or...

I don't believe they (GMX5) will make there lap times differently than a typical FP car, I do believe they will be a little off pace of E which is fine in my opinion in case they get a better tune or something in the cup rules... If it gets too fast, that's why lead was invented, but it's not going to happen with stock cams etc, ala IT. I bet a beer it gets through the corners better than most EP RX7 or RX3 but not as well as a EP miata or S2000 or prelude... I suspect it will run down the straights like an FP Car... Show me data if you think otherwise... I also bet it dies on top end with that windshield (like a lotus or cater)...

Define Legit car? Prod is everything (especially EP).... And I'm the biggest fan of having cars race similar. If I was king, I'd take cars in EP like the 944 or some super powerful BMW and knock off 20 HP, then I'd take 100 lbs out of it or something similar to get trap speeds and corner speeds as close as possible... But at this time, prod is everything. steel fenders... Fiberglass... slicks.... dot tires.... Bias.... Radials.... 1800 lbs 2500 lbs.... great handling... poor handling... fast..... not so fast....leaking.... not leaking... solid axle.... IRS, Roadster... Coupes.... FWD... RWD.... Aerodynamic.... Bricks.... Pretty... Ugly.... New... Old... On time.... Late.... If you expect every car to handle like a top prep 1700 lb GTL tube frame with aero... THat's not prod, not even a midget or spitfire or miata. Jesse showed me Aero (or aero and bias tires combined) works a few years ago in a GTL car...

BS in small bore has nothing to do with classing cars in prod??? THat's a race event thing as far as I know... I'm still pissed two FA's got their own group at topeka couple weeks ago, but I'm not blaming the advisory committee for classing an FA car... A different fight in my opinion...

I'm not trying to be difficult, but it's just hard to understand why the 2.0 L Mazda roadster on slicks is such a bad fit in EP.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 42 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group