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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Fair enough. If it doesn't say you can then you can't.
But you agree that if a rule specifically states "you can" do a specific modification, then by all means you can do that modification...correct?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:33 pm 
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Greg Gauper wrote:
But you agree that if a rule specifically states "you can" do a specific modification, then by all means you can do that modification...correct?


Greg, no baiting please. Post the rule your above inferring to. Otherwise I believe I've pretty well covered what I believe the proposed rule change is and I don't believe their proposed words are correct to convey the specifications they desire.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Yes, this was born out of an instance from earlier in the year, where a car was running a duct to a custom made chamber that encased the intake manifold on a Prep 2 car, for the sole purpose of ducting cooled air to the area around the intake manifold. The modification was done under the following sequence of rules, with the bolding emphasis my own. Please also note that to the best of my knowledge the car in question did not show up to The Runoffs with this modification, as I believe they got wind that it was raising eyebrows, and probably didn't believe the net gain to be worth the possible headache.

Quote:
9.1.5.E.9.a.11.B
The openings created by the removal of front lighting components/assemblies, can be used to duct air to the engine, radiator, oil cooler(s), and front brakes. Holes for the ducting no larger than 7.25” in diameter can be cut in interior panels provided the holes are completely filled by the ducts.

Quote:
Appendix F
Engine – The primary power plant of a car, including all physically attached ancillary components necessary for power production.


I personally (and this is strictly my opinion) can see where someone could make the interpretation that this is legal from those rules. Yes you can duct air to the engine, and yes the intake manifold is considered part of the engine. But I also personally think it's outside the intent of this specific rule, which governs the intake manifold on a Prep 2 car:

Quote:
9.1.5.E.2.b.7
The intake manifold may be port matched on the port mating surface to a depth of no more than one inch. Balance pipes or tubes on all intake manifolds can be plugged or restricted. In all other respects the intake manifold must be stock. Plating, painting or coating of the intake manifold is prohibited.


It's obviously debatable, or else you guys wouldn't be here arguing it right now. So an effort was made to further reiterate the idea that the stock intake manifold on a Prep 2 car is absolutely not supposed to be messed with, no way no how, except as very specifically written in this rule. So extra wording has been added to the last line of that rule, to now read "Non-stock plating, painting, covering or coating of the intake manifold is prohibited.". This is yet another attempt to try and get people to stop dancing around in whatever grey area they can find, when it comes to the intake manifold on a Prep 2 car, because the CRB won't let us write the rule as "Seriously, don't fuck with the intake manifold. Just don't." Don't cover it, don't shroud it, don't blanket it, don't plate it, don't coat it....just leave it alone, except for that very explicit 1" port matching allowance.

A stock intake manifold and a stock throttle body on a Prep 2 car is what makes this whole idea work.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:38 pm 
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I looked at this one. Ducting air to the engine and it just happens to be pointing at the intake? Air dam openings can only go to the radiator, oil cooler or brakes but headlights can go to the engine.

9.1.5.E.9.11B
11. Glass headlight, front parking, side marker and signal light components must be removed.
Plastic headlight, front parking, side marker and signal light components can be removed.
The headlight bezels/rims must remain in their stock locations. If the stock headlight, front
parking, side marker or signal light lenses/covers are removed the resulting openings must be
covered with wire mesh screen or solid panels of the same or a flatter contour than the stock
lenses/covers.
A. Retractable or “pop up” headlight assemblies can be run in their open, partially opened,
closed position or removed in their entirety. The openings created by the removal of the
assembly must be covered with screens or panels. These covers must be the same or
flatter contour as the stock assembly in its closed position, but need not retain any bezels/
rims.
B. The openings created by the removal of front lighting components/assemblies, can be
used to duct air to the engine, radiator, oil cooler(s), and front brakes. Holes for the
ducting no larger than 7.25” in diameter can be cut in interior panels provided the holes
are completely filled by the ducts.


Kevin beat me to it.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Yes that is the rule I was referring to.
And no I don't think it is a tortured or strained interpretation to conclude that one may direct air flow towards 'the engine' which specifically includes the intake manifold and/or any other engine related components as long as I have followed all other restrictions regarding the ducting.
In my specific case I don't have any other heat shields, or additional components attached to my intake.
It literally is a piece of ducting hose laying loose in the engine compartment but pointed towards my intake with the side benefit of trying to also cool down my alternator. The open end of the duct is not connected to anything.

As far as intent is concerned... I can't answer that. I don't know what the original authors of this rule intended.
I do know the general intent (and permitted function) of ducting is to provide and direct cool fresh air towards a component or assembly for the intended purpose of cooling said component. To me it seemed to be a wide-open obvious rule (as currently written). I have never made any attempt to hide this again because it seemed to be a wide open rule. It have never heard of anybody bringing this up until now. This includes multiple visits to Runoffs Tech impound.

The example sited i.e. a complex box or housing added to or surrounding the complete intake manifold does seem to be stretching the rules if for no other reason that manifold/induction system had to be modified to add the housing. But that's entirely different from simply pointing a duct at the manifold with no other changes.

Obviously if the written rule is changed to delete the word 'engine' then I agree that I would have to remove my duct....not a big deal since it is just a single hose clamp connecting it to the headlight duct.

How does one clarify the current written rule?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:06 pm 
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If there is nothing attached to the intake manifold, yes, it's legal.

David Dewhurst wrote:
Peter, the windmill that is not tilting is the prod car that this year had ducting of ambient air to the outside of the intake manifold. Think in terms of ducting ambient air to the throttle body except directly around the outside of the intake manifold. Do YOU consider ducting ambient air to the outside and around the intake manifold legal within todays written rules? I suspect pretty sudden a respected tech dude will chime in who knows of said situation. I'm not down wind of this issue.

Greg, EDIT, on second thought, I don't understand what you posted because I don't understand from where your selected your posted words came from. Please cut and paste the origin of your words to this thread. When I look at my Factory Shop Manual it specifically calls the item between the Throttle body and the head intake ports, an intake manifold. My car is the same model as the car which had the ambient air ducted outside the intake manifold to cool the intake manifold.

I could pull out the, If It Doesn't Say You Can, You Can't. Nowhere is there a rule which specifies you may cool the intake manifold.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:13 pm 
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I see what Greg is doing as legal to the written rules.
I see adding a physical shroud to the intake manifold where air is directed as illegal to the previous and current written rules.

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Last edited by chois on Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:22 pm 
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The later Fiat X1/9s had a fan and ducting to cool the intake.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:08 pm 
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You can certainly point air at the intake system. Any brackets must be attached to something other than the intake.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:36 am 
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FIAT90FP wrote:
The later Fiat X1/9s had a fan and ducting to cool the intake.

If it is stock, it should be legal with the updated rule clarification.

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