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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:33 pm
Posts: 152
Location: San Antonio
Drive train like in a train or one part after another

Like a train
Engine, clutch, trans, driveshaft, rear end

Carb is a part on the drive train it seems to me


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:11 am 
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Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:24 am
Posts: 786
Plot thickens -

Kyle was raising this wrt a Level 2 car. I was citing the Level 1 rules which IMO DO allow mods to an alternate carburetor by reference to the above.

But Level 2 is different as it specifically forbids mods to an alternate carburetor. So as I read it, Level 1 cars can modify alternate carbs, Level 2 cannot.

Al


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:46 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:08 am
Posts: 538
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Drivetrain – Those rotating components in a car that convey the driving power from the engine flywheel to the ground and the housings containing these parts. This is inclusive of the clutch, transmission, driveshaft, differential, halfshafts/axles or any systems providing such functionality. Wheel bearings, driveshaft carrier bearings, wheels, and tires are specifically excluded.

Not carb.

Plus-

9.1.5.D.6. A rule that pertains to a specific component supersedes a general rule that might otherwise apply.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:00 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:08 am
Posts: 1162
Location: Philly
Let's make this more specific.

Let's say that Mr Yamamoto is racing a Toymazan AEMXGTR that has "Auto Type Carburetor" in it's spec line. It's limited prep. He's using Weber 40DCOEs. Can he modify those DCOEs in any way? Smooth out the casting bumps? Replace the throttle shaft screws with flat heads?

Next question:
Mr Montgomery is racing a MGumpley MigFireRite which is full prep. He's also using 40DCOE carburetors. Can he modify his DCOE's in any way?

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:16 am 
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Hi Jim -

Have a look at GCR_-April_2018.pdf (page 458 of the .pdf file, page 456 printed at bottom of page)

E. Authorized Modifications

__1. Drive Train Level 1

____a. Drive Train Component Modification

____b. Induction System

____c. Fuel pumps etc

____d. Emission system etc

____e. Cylinder Head


etc etc

Only sections n. and o. are "Drive Train" ie transmission and final drive.

It is absolutely plain to me that "1. Drive Train Level 1" is a typo and should read "1. Power Train Level 1". Otherwise why is the entire engine and Drive Train called out in section 1? (Power Train = Drive Train + Engine)

Same issues apply in the "Drive Train Level 2" section.

Given that, it also stands to reason that "a. Drive Train Component Modification" is also a typo and should read "a. Power Train Component Modification". For instance, this section allows thermal barrier coatings, which are commonly applied to piston tops and combustion chambers but seem mostly useless in the Drive Train.

Al Seim


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:35 am 
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disquek wrote:
Let's make this more specific.

Let's say that Mr Yamamoto is racing a Toymazan AEMXGTR that has "Auto Type Carburetor" in it's spec line. It's limited prep. He's using Weber 40DCOEs. Can he modify those DCOEs in any way? Smooth out the casting bumps? Replace the throttle shaft screws with flat heads?

Next question:
Mr Montgomery is racing a MGumpley MigFireRite which is full prep. He's also using 40DCOE carburetors. Can he modify his DCOE's in any way?

-Kyle


L2: Mr Yamamoto plainly cannot as E.2.b.1 plainly prohibits ie "The stock or permitted alternate carburetor must not be modified."

L1: If E.1.a.1 is taken as read and only applies to "Drive Train" then I don't see anything in the rules allowing Mr. Montgomery to modify his carbs either. He's not specifically forbidden (unlike Mr. Yamamoto) but "if it doesn't say you can you can't". If E.1.a.1 read "Power Train" (As I suspect it should) then yes he could modify his carbs.

Al


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:26 am 
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Location: Philly
Interesting. I think you're right that e.2.b.1 tells you that you cannot modify limited prep carburetors. I had been thrown off by the list of downdrafts there, and thought e.2.b.1 applied only to those carbs. Good catch.

The definition of "Auto Type Carb" via the unenforceable list of manufacturers is in the full prep section. So if your car is limited prep and has an allowance to run an "Auto Type Carb", the list in the full prep section doesn't apply.

So the limited prep and full prep rules both endeavor to tell you that you can't modify your carb. But the limited prep section does it by saying so outright, and the full prep section does it by unenforceable list, and the general rule that says "If it doesn't say you can, you cant"?

Does anyone else see why this is confusing and keeps people away from prod?

-Kyle


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:39 am 
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disquek wrote:
Interesting. I think you're right that e.2.b.1 tells you that you cannot modify limited prep carburetors. I had been thrown off by the list of downdrafts there, and thought e.2.b.1 applied only to those carbs. Good catch.

The definition of "Auto Type Carb" via the unenforceable list of manufacturers is in the full prep section. So if your car is limited prep and has an allowance to run an "Auto Type Carb", the list in the full prep section doesn't apply.

So the limited prep and full prep rules both endeavor to tell you that you can't modify your carb. But the limited prep section does it by saying so outright, and the full prep section does it by unenforceable list, and the general rule that says "If it doesn't say you can, you cant"?

Does anyone else see why this is confusing and keeps people away from prod?

-Kyle


It is confusing, especially given my opinion that E.1.a was probably intended to say "Power Train Allowed Modifications" and thus intended to allow L1 carbs to be modded. It would be interesting to dig out GCR/PCS before and after the Kevin Dennis rewrite which was IIRC intended to clarify rather than significantly change the Prod rules. IIRC in the "old days" you WERE allowed to modify full prep carbs, I remember all sorts of interesting mods to SUs in particular.

BTW, on a tangent, with E.1.a saying "Drive Train Allowed Modifications" L1 cars can't deck their blocks or barrier coat their pistons... :shock:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:30 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:08 am
Posts: 538
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Guys, I can only work with what it says. You can work with what you think it should say.

Then, we'll both let the stewards work with what they think it it does say. And then the Court of Appeals will decide.

Been there and done that!

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Jim Creighton
CARS Tour DoR
SEDiv SARRC Administrator
V8 Road Racing Series Administrator
Runoffs Line Chief Tech Prod cars


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:19 pm 
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Location: Philly
Jim,

We're just trying to figure out what it says.

-Kyle


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