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 Post subject: Full Prep
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:38 pm 
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Location: Oregon City, Or.
When roughly when did Scca Prod cars start using full prep suspension? Alternate parts and design..


Thanks for any help.

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Joe Harlan Member #175515


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 Post subject: Re: Full Prep
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:15 pm 
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My faltering memory remembers coil-over conversions coming along early in the '80s. Maybe reason for Vintage rules relating to 1983 GCR?

R. J. Sorensen


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 Post subject: Re: Full Prep
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:33 pm 
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That's part of the reason for the question, more and more prodcars are showing up but they are built far beyond the rules sets currently being used. Its just going to be a matter of how the class a full prep 80s HP car vs a 68 to 72 HP car..

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 Post subject: Re: Full Prep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:18 am 
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Talking to those who were there...

On the rear suspension, cars with lever shocks were allowed to replace them with tube shocks. Also, axle locating devices were allowed.

3 link with jack screws were around by the early /mid ‘70s. 4 links with coil-overs appeared shortly thereafter (‘76-‘80 time frame). Using the tube shock / axle locating device / springs are free rule, some racers put a coil-over on the rear, had “axle locating devices”, and used a pallet strap in place of the stock leaf spring. The interpretation was that they had a spring in the stock location, but it was effectively dead. Coil-overs appeared on the front at the same time - but this is on cars that already had front tube shocks. Not sure when they went the fully Monty with revised a-arm location points and cars with lever shocks at the front could replace them. Likely some time in the ‘80s.

Bronze bushings were on cars by the mid ‘60s.

Also gear sets were restricted into the early ‘80s.

The engine rules have been pretty much the same since the early ‘60s. Alternate material cranks and aftermarket rods were allowed in the late ‘70s / ‘80s. Prior to that, factory backed racers and well connected privateer racers would have to regularly replace cranks and rods with the RPM they were turning.

Some cars were allowed alternate calipers by the late ‘70s (thinking some of the BL stuff).

Full prep is really just a product of rules creep and attempts at parity.

It’s hard to compare this stuff against a modern vintage prep car. A lot of people self impose limits because they have this idea of what “it was back in the day” and not what it actually was. Typically their logic is anyone who is beating them is breaking the “spirit of vintage racing”. The point is what wasctually done vs what people are showing up with now may not be the same thing, and there is a little more Puritan fiction than truth in a current vintage build. I’ve seen tech inspectors tell racers who were actually there in the day what they had and didn’t have. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Full Prep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:11 am 
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1980 was the first year for full prep and most of it happened all at once.

Interesting time as there were some more ambitious competitors, that took early advantage of the rule allowances, and won a lot of races. I recently saw Steve Schwitters 1980 GProd Runoffs winning car. It is amazing that a car could be developed and modified to that degree by one guy, in one winter (79-80) off season. It would not be legal under the current Full Prep rules.

SVRA and HSR will and have made a place for my current Full Prep HP/FP Alfa to run. There is even a class. Just not one anybody else is likely to show up and race you in at this time.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Prep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:31 am 
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Curtis wrote:
1980 was the first year for full prep and most of it happened all at once.

Interesting time as there were some more ambitious competitors, that took early advantage of the rule allowances, and won a lot of races. I recently saw Steve Schwitters 1980 GProd Runoffs winning car. It is amazing that a car could be developed and modified to that degree by one guy, in one winter (79-80) off season. It would not be legal under the current Full Prep rules.

SVRA and HSR will and have made a place for my current Full Prep HP/FP Alfa to run. There is even a class. Just not one anybody else is likely to show up and race you in at this time.


Curtis, I believe pushrod suspensions were outlawed at some point as well as Hardy Prentice (TR3 racer) had a pushrod rear suspension due to the lack of space for a proper 3 or 4 link rear suspension.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Prep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:09 am 
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So really what you guys are saying is Prod should be divided pre and post 1980 for vintage?

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 Post subject: Re: Full Prep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:38 am 
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Joe Harlan wrote:
So really what you guys are saying is Prod should be divided pre and post 1980 for vintage?


I mean, 1980 is almost 40 years ago at this point :lol: .

There seems to be five breaks:

Pre-1962-3 (Think showroom stock with some mods. Rules opened up when Cal-Club and SCCA merged the Production classes together). This would be SVRA Group 4
1962/3-1972 (think IT chassis rules, open prep engines, no flares, maybe some chin spoilers "brake ducts" :lol: , most everything had to be homologated ). This would be SVRA Group 3
1972-1980 (flares, slicks, spoilers, rules creep in the chassis world (roll cages as opposed to roll bars, rear suspensions as I outlined above), some stuff still had to be homologated). This would be SVRA Group 8
1980-199? (tube chassis in a body, pushrod suspensions in some instances, any transmission gear ratios you want, forged/billet cranks were legal, dry sumps, some instances were allowed sequential transmissions, some got special brakes)
199?-Present (what full prep is now).

So yes, the post 1980 stuff are the orphans. They could go into something like SVRA Group 10, but they would be racing the same era Trans Am and IMSA GT cars.

Note: the SVRA Groups are typically how they have broken them up. I know a lot of the east coast organizations base their classing structure similarly.

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 Post subject: Re: Full Prep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:46 am 
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Location: Pensacola, Fl.
81 GCR had tube shocks replacing lever, but had to retain the arms if part of "suspension"... No leaf springs going to coils at that time...had to use # and attachement points supplied by mfgr.

Very few straight up, period correct, vintage cars seen today. A shame... shows a lack of knowledge or total disreguard in efforts to be at front/fastest. NO reason for a national champ in vintage racing...shouldn't be the motivation. A good race/show, not a technology beatdown...

Had a discussion last year about fitting rear disk brakes to a car came with drums. Owner/driver was about to get kicked out, for "running over" other folks. Didn't have enough brake. Nothing mentioned/thought about slowing down, leaving space, or driving within limits.

Think cars that actually raced in period should be special considerations. Even though logbooks only came in in 72 (as did flares), those cars that contiuned to be raced were often modified to current rules. As such, if within an "era" of rules, then the rules should govern. However, further modifications or new builds with "extras" should not. (ie. no 9" ford rears, stiff space frames for "safety", or other "fancy stuff".) Focus should be the cars to a period, not beating all! Probably a hopeless dream on my part.

Different attitude today? Perhaps. Times: they change, sometimes not for the better. Vintage racing is no different. The cut line keeps moving up in time.....that won't stop, nor should it.

Bob L.


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 Post subject: Re: Full Prep
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:49 am 
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Elva wrote:
81 GCR had tube shocks replacing lever, but had to retain the arms if part of "suspension"... No leaf springs going to coils at that time...had to use # and attachement points supplied by mfgr.

Very few straight up, period correct, vintage cars seen today. A shame... shows a lack of knowledge or total disreguard in efforts to be at front/fastest. NO reason for a national champ in vintage racing...shouldn't be the motivation. A good race/show, not a technology beatdown...

.


The thing is, rules a lot of times were written in response to something people were doing because there was no way to enforce it. A lot of the development changes predate the rules change. This is the why cars that may have certain modifications had them done before those dates. In vintage, they enforce the hard date that it appeared in the rule book, hence the "Puritan" comment and not being inline with what was actually happening. A lot of this isn't because SCCA decided they wanted to move the development bar higher for no reason...

Like playing a game in gym class, somebody has to win.

Cheat or exploit the rules and write books about it, and people think you're brilliant (Smokey Yunick, Mark Donohue - not saying they're not).

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