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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:52 am
Posts: 20
Bill,
I have been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. I am in the same boat as you are with an "orphan car" (Mazda 626). I have had the same thoughts as you are having and ask the same questions. I personally agree with Rons last post. You can buy a competitive car or enjoy the engineering challenge and let the chip fall were they may. I would love to run up front but I think I know my limitations and most of all my budget and a desire to stay married. So I will enjoy the challenge of the development and the engineering project. I hope to see you at the track this year and maybe just run faster than you lol. :)

Dave Reiter
14 FP Mazda 626


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:55 am
Posts: 123
This is a great thread. I have learned a lot and I appreciate the list of engine builders and header suppliers etc by hoffman900.

Bill did ask about cost of buiilding a front running Miata in FP so maybe I can help there a bit.

I purchased a front running FP Miata from Ken Kannard and its an amazing car. It can win any race if its set up right with the right driver. And it has a lot of track records and I actually managed a couple of them this year myself. So I think in most every aspect the car is still about as good as any others out there more or less. And that car was $23K more or less as I race it. The only thing I have changed is to add a rear sway bar and rebuild things. The motor had 3 weekends on it and the gearbox was fairly fresh also. And it had 3 sets of wheels. For what it is worth it made 163 RWHP when I purchased it. At the Runoffs and the Majors at VIR it had competitive trap speed numbers with the other Miatas. I know that Jesse has said his newer motors make more midrange and I am sure that would help. I will get one soon :)

I was building my ITA Miata in to an FP one part at a time and then lost the motor. And I looked at my options and realized buying a sorted car made sense so purchased the car from Ken. Here are some costs (These prices are from Jesse and others within the last year. The Top notch stuff you need to run at the front.)

Engine $10-12K plus shipping both ways.
Gearbox $3500-$5000 stock Mazda box with close ratio gears
Diff. With factory Torsen and 4.78 or 4.8 $1200-2000 ( I did mine myself for $600 with a used R+P) If the car you start with has a Torsen Maybe $300 less.
Shocks + Springs $2400-3000
Exhaust System $1500
ECU $800-1500
Flywheel + Clutch $1400
9.8lb Enkie Wheels $800 set

So just that stuff is $24K midrange and obviously you need a car, cage, safety gear, radiator, and lots of other suspension parts plus the fiberglass etc.

As others have mentioned it may make sense to build another car based on what you want to be different. For example my car has very wide fender flares that add nothing to the car as I could run with narrower ones and still have the same tires and track. I would change that for sure if I built a car.

Have Fun!

Rob

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Rob Garrison

FP Mazda Miata
IT7 RX7
2nd Gen STL EP RX7


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:45 am
Posts: 156
All:

Thank you for the input. I really appreciate the honesty and sharing of what everyone has done as well as the effort that people like Mr. Hoffman have put in. "Reasonable budget" probably has a different meaning for me - I spend too much time and $$$ custom making parts because they don't exist for the Saturn. While I love the engineering challenge, the purchasing of new tooling and development of fixturing to make a bunch of this stuff (along with the fact that i am not a machinist and sometimes scrap parts) is starting to take its toll.

It appears that there are two routes to go, and for either, I will need to go all in. One has been proven to give a "no excuses" result - the car and steps are proven and if that route is chosen, only the driver will be the issue. The second is a full R&D project to build something "Different" - not just be another one of the group out there, but also may not be able to make enough power to contend. Sure, with a top flight build I could petition the SCCA to change the spec line, but there are no guarantees of that.

Now to choose which adventure I pursue...

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Bill H
92 Saturn SL2 - SCCA F-Production


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:47 pm
Posts: 202
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/artic ... -race-car/
Little late regarding this thread, but have you ever heard of Rosenblum Racing. Very sucessfull team raced Saturns with Quacker State sponsership World Challenge in 1997 and later? Drivers where Paul Booher, also was responsible for developing the cars, and Christian Skarvnes. Very fast cars even Peter could not beat tham all the time. Do a little research might be helpful. The site above you might have seen before.

Mike FP Miata


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:25 pm
Posts: 202
Hey Bill,

Don't know if you remember but we met in the tower at Road America doing track days 10+ years ago (we were watching the monitors when a corvette hit the wall in the kink and the driver got out and took his helmet off while the track was live...Carson went nuts).

I purchased an old Speedsource ITS RX-7, ran ITS for 3 years then converted to EP. I totaled the car 2 years later in the rain during the Runoffs, got a boneyard car, transferred the parts and made a faster and better EP car. I figure it cost me about 3x more then buying somebodies completed car. I'm still spending money to boot.

In theory, used race car stuff is worth about $0.20 on the dollar...In reality I always seem to be paying $1.00! There are great deals to be had on good equipment.

Good luck!

Steve


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:18 pm
Posts: 356
To me...

It is important to be racing near/against other cars... I think I could have fun developing a "different" car, provided I thought I could make it fast enough that I could be around other "competitive" cars... and I could see improvement over time... Running around for 45 minutes without being around other cars would have me looking for a different car or a different class!

But, you can do development with a common car too!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:45 am
Posts: 156
Steve - how can I forget you! Still need to try one of your beers...

The nice thing about the SCCA is there is always someone to race with, even if they aren't in your class. As long as it is respectful and not getting in the way of an actual, for position in class battle, a good time can be had by all. But, you are right, Sam - not being in touch with the pointy end of the class does have its drawbacks...

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Bill H
92 Saturn SL2 - SCCA F-Production


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:07 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:59 am
Posts: 1096
Location: Spring Hill, FL.
Rosenblume had Inside GM help and picked up HP working on the dyno with GM ECU . He should be easy to find in Rochester NY.
Also FWIW I bought a car due to it's throttle body size VS the rest of the class.

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Mike Ogren/Protech Racing, http://www.FWDracingguide.com http://www.ogren-engineering.com/ 352.428-8983 mogren@tampabay.rr.com


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:58 pm
Posts: 452
Location: SJ
Protech Racing wrote:
Rosenblume had Inside GM help and picked up HP working on the dyno with GM ECU . He should be easy to find in Rochester NY.
Also FWIW I bought a car due to it's throttle body size VS the rest of the class.



Just another data point:

50mm throttle body works out to be 3.04in^2. The GM LS9 Daytona Prototype engines* a few years ago were making 600bhp from 332ci, redline to 7500rpm. They breathed through a pair of 35.4mm SIRs - combine this is an effective open area of 3.05in^2.

You can't do anything from the intake manifold side of the throttle body, but you can play around with the convergent side on entrance side of the throttle body (without touching the casting). Velocity stacks and air supply ducts are unrestricted.

* You can read more about those engines here: https://rameywomer.files.wordpress.com/ ... engine.pdf

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Bob A.


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