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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:28 am 
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VWRalf wrote:
Mark Meller wrote:
Regarding H Prod I’m with Keith… I’ve been lurking in the wings, waiting for someone (thanks Keith) to point out the obvious.
Questions: What type of car finished in the top 4 positions? Are some adjustments in order? (100 lbs sounds reasonable) Any comments? Are we totally misguided?


What car/driver has the new track record?



Races are more than one perfect lap!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:32 am 
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This event was an emotional low point for me in this hobby, but more this year than ever the 2020 season has started for me as I review every element of the braking system from pedal to caliper to ensure that it is robust and properly set-up / maintained.

We had a good test in August, and it felt great to arrive on Saturday with a fully functional, potentially competitive race car.
Unfortunately some mis-diagnosed issues in my braking system from a September event cropped up again (misadjusted pushrod didn't allow the masters to retract enough, and the brakes would not release when I used them hard) and I got no real time in Q1. As soon as I realized the issue, heading up the esses, I decided to keep pumping heat into the brakes and get the car off track at the South pit lane to let everyone else get some laps in.

We found the issue, and made an adjustment Tuesday evening (noting that one of the pushrods really should be trimmed, because it was at the end of the adjustment range), and replaced the calipers and bled the system because it all got really really hot. The car worked fine on a hardship lap, and I was able to get out and get a so-so lap in before Ruck's unfortunate moment on the back straight. I did have an off in T1, and had to straighten out the air dam before diving into the brake pushrods - shortening the one for the rear master.

Thursday it was nice to start in a grid spot that should have allowed a fast lap. Unfortunately the guys around me were racing more than qualifying, and while I took the opportunity to get to know how they are to drive with, I was a bit surprised that every time I pulled out to pass on the back straight I was driven over to the left side of the track (I sure would welcome a chance to draft off a Golf, but okay), and more surprised to watch a dive bomb in T1 resulting in contact. There was about 6 minutes left in the session when I decided to back off to find some space, and maybe work with Albin to put down a strong lap. That was when they checkered us early following Ron's unfortunate incident.

The good news was that I felt really confident on how the car was working, and had worked through the two spots on track that I was least happy with my driving. I was sure that the race at the front would be close and long and fun, but I also thought I would be in it.
At the end of the back straight on the formation lap the brake pedal went to the floor. I pumped it up with my left foot to the green, got a decent enough start considering the closely matched field, but the brakes were not there in T1, and I backed out. It turns out the circlip that retains the rear master pushrod failed (or was not fully seated Wednesday night?). When we saw what it was, it just made me sick to my stomach. Such a great opportunity lost because of my own failure to diagnose and repair the brakes...

This experience definitely gives me a new appreciation for the multiple podium finishers out there. It takes so much more than a competitive car and driver..., bullet proof prep, luck, good decision making by everyone in the group, etc.

I don't agree with the suggestions here that we should go back to the lead trophy behavior of Production categories past. Whether mechanical failures, driving mistakes, traffic or other issues, there were other reasons that Ron, Steve, Eric, Chris and I were not there at the front pushing the Hondas in the final laps. IF the data shows an advantage, then a discussion about performance adjustments might make sense, but finishing position is not performance data.

The quality of the H field was deep. AND I could see 3-4 of the cars from 'mid pack' making big strides over the next year. AND I know there are at least 3 fast cars from CenDiv that didn't make VIR that should be back in the mix.
I can't wait for next year! It has the potential to be a hell of a HP race in Wisconsin.

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Chris Schaafsma


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:40 am 
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I am not a big believer of using one race result to make changes in car specification. Yes, 4 Hondas were in the first 4 positions. A lot went on in that race to contribute to that . Shafsma had problems on the first lap. Sargis was not his normal perfection and dropped a wheel early and had issues later. Ron certainly had a less than perfect week and still set the track record. There were a few fast cars that never made the trip to VIR.

All that being said , I race Hondas and now a Bugeye. I have raced a 100lb overweight Honda with minimal effect on my laptimes. Might it give closer racing over the total lap distance ? maybe, but likely not enough to have changed the outcome of this race. Do i think there is a definite advantage to the torque the bigger motor cars have , yes. Is there and easy solution to the percieved problem , no.
Look at the diversity in the H prod field . look at the lap times. I think right now there is as close to parity as you will find away from a spec class. I also know it is a moving target. racecar evolution will continue and at some point adjustments will be necessary .

Hope everyone enjoys their off season and comes back next season faster.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:42 am 
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Location: Cbus, OH
Mark Meller wrote:
Regarding H Prod I’m with Keith… I’ve been lurking in the wings, waiting for someone (thanks Keith) to point out the obvious.
Questions: What type of car finished in the top 4 positions? Are some adjustments in order? (100 lbs sounds reasonable) Any comments? Are we totally misguided?

Using the Final Results sheet as a lone data point to make a final conclusion like that...a bold move, that no statistical analysis would support.

The top-8 on the HP grid had 6 different classifications, spread across only 1.766s. Of those top-8, only three of them ran a clean race, and those three ended up on the podium. The fact that they were all mid-80's Honda's, is a foot-note to everything that happened that week.

I've also read elsewhere where the "merits" of Vesa, Will, and Rick as drivers and the development of their cars was brought into question, as they're all only "just IT guys" who are a few years removed. Honestly, that upsets me, because again conclusions are being drawn on lack of and misinformation, that bring into question the work and effort of our competitors. Vesa and Will have both been building and prepping 1st gen CRX's to an incredibly high level for ~20 years, and have been wheeling the hell out of them across the southeast the whole time. I've forgotten how many different Honda's Rick has campaigned over the years, so he knows his way around them and knows how to drive them. His HP Civic was the culmination of a several year project after purchasing Sam Moore's HP Civic, and it all came together. Keep in mind that the Civic he was driving earlier this year, was an ITB version (a spec he too has been racing for a very long time), as the real HP racecar was undergoing a complete tub-up re-transformation.

In FP, the top-6 finishers were all Miata's. Does that mean they're overdogs and should get a sizable adjustment? Well, again, that's a single data point to the story of what actually happened. The FP starting grid had 4 different classifications in the top-9, which were spread over only 1.753s. Unfortunately, the Midget, the 7, and the Integra all couldn't run a clean race, while the other five cars in the top-8 did. Footnote, those were all Miata's. None of them got bitten by attrition gremlins, they all drove well, and they got rewarded justly.

Not many other SCCA classes can make these statements:
"The top-8 on the HP grid had 6 different classifications, spread across only 1.766s."
"The FP starting grid had 4 different classifications in the top-9, which were spread over only 1.753s."

Nothing that I've said here is opinion. It's all factual data points, to the entire story. Look at sector times, look at trap speeds, look at consistency lap after lap and session to session, be there on the ground, watching every session, talking to the drivers, know the specs, know the history, know the failures, know the fixes, collect the data, strip the labels, remove your loyalty, and lastly, never assume that you've gathered it all.

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kevin

ruckracing honda's:
'15 & '10 Runoffs FP Champion
'10, '09, & '08 ARRC ITA/ITB Champion


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:19 am 
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VWRalf wrote:
Mark Meller wrote:
Regarding H Prod I’m with Keith… I’ve been lurking in the wings, waiting for someone (thanks Keith) to point out the obvious.
Questions: What type of car finished in the top 4 positions? Are some adjustments in order? (100 lbs sounds reasonable) Any comments? Are we totally misguided?


What car/driver has the new track record?


New track record? Pretty sure it was a "Bugeye" that had never turned a wheel before that weekend. :lol:

Fastest trap speed, the same VW that has had it at like half a dozen Runoffs.

The podium, cars that didn't break, crash, or do something to take themselves out.

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99 HP Toyota Yaris
2005-2008 SCCA Solo National Champion
2017-2018 SCCA Runoffs Champion


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:33 am 
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Location: Corry, Pa.
Perfect Kevin


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:47 pm 
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2000, one good qualifying lap in GP, 75 lbs on all Spitfires (probably what killed Gprod)
2001, one good qualifying in FP lap 60 lbs on all Spitfires
2003, one screwed up start by the the field to let the pole sitter in FP get away, 50lbs on all Spitfires.
Changes have been made based on one data point in the past. We shouldn't do it in the future. Hopefully someone actually looks at the data collected, not holding my breath. In the years I was on the committee I never saw anything.
Congrats to Vesa, Eric, and Kip. Nice job!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:34 pm 
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chois wrote:
This event was an emotional low point for me in this hobby, but more this year than ever the 2020 season has started for me as I review every element of the braking system from pedal to caliper to ensure that it is robust and properly set-up / maintained.


Chris take heart. Sonoma was my worst road race pretty much ever, and it was self induced.

I spent this year focusing on handling (took two events) brakes (didn't fix it until after racing was over) and other basic stuff (way, way better notes.)

I am now seconds faster than I was and have a full head of steam heading into RA next year.

Yes there will be more setbacks, but focusing on the next problem and resolving it is what got me to wherever it is I am.

Anyway your post resonated with me. I was thinking about throwing it all in the ocean last year.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:01 pm 
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“Like”

Thanks dude.
I’m all in for next year. This stuff is too fun to quit.

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Chris Schaafsma


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:05 pm 
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Location: Wauwatosa, WI
chois wrote:
“Like”

Thanks dude.
I’m all in for next year. This stuff is too fun to quit.


Wish there was a site "Like" button. :think:

By the way, Topeka never returned with answer to how many SCCA employees in Colorado versus Kansas. Again they met THEIR expectations.

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Have Fun ; )

David Dewhurst
CenDiv Milwaukee Region
F Prod #14


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