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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:48 am 
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Peter, (morton...),

Not and never said you were being mean. Didn't intend to imply so if I did. You actually did him a favor as it worked out, because it half assedly corrected mistakes by the officials.

I do however disagree with you. He was registered for race 2 as an FP car, not as an EP car. Thus he ran as an FP car, not an EP car.

Rob, you were specifically shown in your registration as an FP car for day 2, correct? If you were not, then you were in fact running as EP Sunday, not FP......

It doesn't really matter, since he got the start which is all he needed.

However, I strongly think that the officials were wrong on this one, and the actual wording in the GCR backs that up.

It is something that should be addressed, if only to prevent things like this from happening.

You, and the officials, are applying normal sane logic. He didn't qual as an FP, thus he needs to start at the back.

But that is not what the rules actually say. (as long as he was registered for Sunday as an FP car)

SCCA needs to add 2 words to the GCR, and the issue will never arise again, from a "legal" standpoint.

And Peter (Olivola), I have no idea, but that should be part of the GCR in big bold letters.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:42 am 
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When you enter a Majors it is for the weekend, not by Sat/Sun. Thus the car and that number and transponder were listed for both days as EP. Then you had a second entry that was a Majors 2 day entry in FP. Your plan is to run 1 day in each class. Timing gets a download from MSR for the weekend and you show up in the initial report as 2 separate entries. They have no real way to pick this out as many drivers do bring 2 cars.

You had a very unique situation that required you to have good communication with the operating steward for your group. It was on you to speak with them to be sure everyone was on the same page. Had you gone out in Sunday qualifier without letting T&S know you were in a different class the computer would have still seen the car by transponder number in EP.

I had a driver at CMS need to qualify 2 cars in the same group. We arranged with his op steward to have him turn a few laps in the first car and had his second car sitting on pit road for him to transfer to. Again it took the communication of the driver to just let us know what he needed to do and we all worked it out. Just entering the same car in 2 classes in the same group is a cluster waiting to happen without this communication.

I am just shocked any reasonable person still wants to argue you can qualify one class car and grid in that spot with another car. No qualifying time in FP and you had no right to even be on the grid without permission of the op steward to start from the rear. This is all on you, really. Chalk it up to poor communication.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:32 pm 
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Steve Eckerich wrote:

I am just shocked any reasonable person still wants to argue you can qualify one class car and grid in that spot with another car. No qualifying time in FP and you had no right to even be on the grid without permission of the op steward to start from the rear. This is all on you, really. Chalk it up to poor communication.


Don't want to pile on here - I certainly have been frustrated with officials in the past, and in this case, somewhere along the line, someone didn't do their job (not allow you to grid there.)

I do see you tried awfully hard to get them to do the right stuff, so I get your frustration. Expecting competitors to know the nuances of all the stuff in the GCR well, not realistic. Stewards in those positions clearly need to learn a few things, or pass them along, at least.

To me, the only lesson going forward is, if you don't have a qualifying time, you have to ask permission to be on the grid, from the chief steward (as Steve said.) Once you know that, it won't matter what they do wrong.

And yes, someone should have told you that in the grid; they also obviously had something to learn. (As Steve said, bad communication down the line.)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:33 pm 
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Grid workers have no clue you are even an entrant in FP. They have a sheet with car number and grid position. That is all.

After 15 years being a race chair and over 30 as a driver, I guess I have a different view than most. My wife is our registrar so I get to see how MSR does the reports.

We assume that timing and grid had a clue what the driver is doing. Unless we tell them they do not. Nobody in this situation had bad intentions, just bad information.

Not picking on you Rob. I know what it took to get you covered at CMS and we were on the phone with timing when you went to grid Sunday to be sure we had you straight.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:39 pm 
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Steve Eckerich wrote:
Grid workers have no clue you are even an entrant in FP. They have a sheet with car number and grid position. That is all.



Interesting. I would think that class would be on there somewhere- but you know way better than I do.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:53 pm 
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blamkin86 wrote:
Steve Eckerich wrote:
Grid workers have no clue you are even an entrant in FP. They have a sheet with car number and grid position. That is all.



Interesting. I would think that class would be on there somewhere- but you know way better than I do.


I have seen some very low tech grid sheets, like a hand written list of car numbers - varies greatly by Region/event.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:17 pm 
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Quote:
The Supps said the grid would be based on the fastest race lap or qualifying lap

For your class. ?your FP "car " was not there on sat

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:51 pm 
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I have a question, mentioned in the original post but never explained: Why were there no grid sheets available? Drivers have no way of knowing there is a problem with their grid positions unless they can see a grid sheet sufficiently in advance to raise an issue.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:47 pm 
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It's a mess to me. I want to be clear that Peter was not being a bad guy about it. We are cool. He did not formally protest. It was settled without him having to since T&S timed me in EP. I do not think he was going to protest even if I was given 2nd in FP. We had even talked about me giving him the tire I thought I had won when we were at impound. Maybe an hour before the race Peter and I spoke about me having to catch him and I think we thought it would be fun. I thought they would put me at the back. And as I told him I went where they told me to go. I could see he was not happy about but he was not steaming mad or anything. He raised a valid point. I thought I did too.

The http://www.motorsportreg.com registration is still up for that weekend and if you look at the entry list is shows me in EP saturday and FP sunday. It has for ages. The EP guys could make the same beef. I was on the Sunday entry list as an FP car and my car was marked as an FP car. I could see how they would be mad if I was scored as an EP. Why should I be if I am marked FP and on the official registration as an FP.

I did the exact same thing in Charlotte except I did FP then EP. THe difference was Vicky Eckerich did my registration and made sure T&S had it correct. She did that before I left. I made 100% sure registration had it correct when I checked in and paid at Roebling. Now I know to make sure T&S had it correct. But you would think the link between registration and T & S would be better but maybe on these weird ones it breaks down. But I did my due deligence by asking for the Grid sheet since they threw out the Sunday qualfying. But no grid sheet was posted or available.

As far as the grid the rules say it goes by qualfying time. Unless amended by the supps. The supps for the race like many of them said the grid is set by the fasting time to that point. The email sent to us by the Cheif Stewert said "The grids for the Sunday races will be based on the car's best time in the Saturday qualifying or best race lap." That wording makes sense because at least one good friend of mine drives one race and his son drives the other. And they were there. If You eliminate a scheduled qualifying session you should try and make it up to the people that were counting on it. They did do untimed hardship laps. THey should have done one 8-10 minute qualfying session for people with no times and problem solved. They have done that before. My point is that I had a reasonable expectation that the Grid may be set as he stipulated. By the cars fastest time. Even then I figured 80% chance they would likely start me last. I had no idea and no way to find out before I got to the grid. And then I went where they told me, position 7. Which they later said was my fault for goint to and why I had to be last in FP.

I'm pretty over it really. I am just happy that now I am qualfied I can finally start actually going to races for fun again. The majors are not fun very often in my experience. That's just how it is when the stakes are raised. Or where the goal is the Runoffs and not the actual race weekend. But I have Never had a bad time at a regional in my IT car. 100% success rate for fun there. Makes me smile again thinking about it :) I knew I would want to go race again after yesterday. Just took a day. But still don't want to do to a damn major. That will take longer.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 7:19 am 
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Where is the supps does it say "for the class".

Where in the GCR does it say "for the class" for setting the grid.

If, as Steve said, the car is shown in the registration as EP for both days, then it ran as an EP car. End of story.

However, it was registered as FP for Sunday, and had a Tech sticker for FP.

So it was, per all the rules and registration, running as an FP car.

There is nothing at all in the gcr or the supps for this event that in any way states that you must qualify in the class you race in this specific messed up scenario.

That is my point. One change in the GCR, and this can never "legally" happen again.

Had there been a Sunday qualifying this would never have happened (or would it have? If the grid sheet or the qual sheet had him listed as E, and it was not available to the competitors prior to the race, there would have been the same issue) However, even in this situation he could have looked at the mylaps results (provided it was working) and gone and asked questions.

Now, I personally would have just pulled to the back of the grid, way back, and told everyone I wanted to start at the back, and then stayed there. I would not have even pulled up enough to be gridded. I have done that before with no issues, but that was with a different region, and not a Majors race.

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