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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 10:33 am 
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GT6 wrote:
:lol: This is my favorite! Who in hell would want to race when the best driver wins??? :lol: :applause:


So, you're voting that the entire production class revert to "as delivered" brakes. Interesting.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 11:24 am 
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Location: Huntsville, AL
Poor Datsuns. The 240/260s 10.7 solid disks and drums on the back. With 220+hp they are in for a hell of a ride.

Back to stock everything for everyone. Lets just return to Showroom stock for old dinosaurs. That will definitely bring in new competitors. :-[...

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 1:13 pm 
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While the sensationalism of this thread is certainly entertaining, the reality is that MOST cars in Prod do have brakes that we CAN make work.
For those that can't be made to work, there are spec line allowances.
(in HP I'm not sure if anyone legitimately can't get the car to stop well enough)

My brakes for sure can do the job, but I spend more making free brake pads with a sufficient compound fit my calipers in a season than a pair of "race" calipers to fit my same 9.4" rotors would cost.

So I can see both sides of this.
-I have often asked the question about why we SHOULD add an allowance when someone presents it as "Why shouldn't we?"...
-I also know for sure that my running costs would go down, and payback would be less than two seasons to be able to get pads that drop in with the correct compounds (and I probably wouldn't mind the improved feel from the driver seat). I don't think this would become "another expensive thing you have to do" because it would actually save me money - otherwise I would stick with my existing stuff which does work fine.

When I consider the "optics" of the class to people that are getting into racing, and choosing classes, I also get why our brake rules would seem odd - if they never actually spoke to someone running well to understand what and how we make them work.

Hence my openness to alternate calipers, but reservation to change rotor sizes.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 1:32 pm 
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Rotor sizes are really driven by wheel size anyways. You aren't jamming a 12in rotor in a 13in wheel and I bet if you have an HP runnning 15s you go slower running a heavy 12 x 1.25 rotor with 130whp. Now you start talking EP cars they go up to 18s and yeah you could 15 a 14+in rotor. Hence the reason I proposed a max rotor size for those cars to make it more reasonable, but the reality is many of those cars came with 12-13in rotors anyways.

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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 6:05 am 
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Location: Holland, MI
chois wrote:
While the sensationalism of this thread is certainly entertaining, the reality is that MOST cars in Prod do have brakes that we CAN make work.
For those that can't be made to work, there are spec line allowances.
(in HP I'm not sure if anyone legitimately can't get the car to stop well enough)

My brakes for sure can do the job, but I spend more making free brake pads with a sufficient compound fit my calipers in a season than a pair of "race" calipers to fit my same 9.4" rotors would cost.

So I can see both sides of this.
-I have often asked the question about why we SHOULD add an allowance when someone presents it as "Why shouldn't we?"...
-I also know for sure that my running costs would go down, and payback would be less than two seasons to be able to get pads that drop in with the correct compounds (and I probably wouldn't mind the improved feel from the driver seat). I don't think this would become "another expensive thing you have to do" because it would actually save me money - otherwise I would stick with my existing stuff which does work fine.

When I consider the "optics" of the class to people that are getting into racing, and choosing classes, I also get why our brake rules would seem odd - if they never actually spoke to someone running well to understand what and how we make them work.

Hence my openness to alternate calipers, but reservation to change rotor sizes.


Best post I have seen yet. I'm not as open to alternate anything, but I have the same argument in my head when presented with this question. I still maintain that prod has thrived for these reasons:

1. Adjusting carefully for parity
2. Maintaining stable rules over a long time
3. Controlling cost through allowable mods in level 2 prep

Categories that continually jack with the rules have poor participation rates. No one likes a moving target. Few have time to chase the target with their time and money.


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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 4:40 pm 
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One step closed to GT....merge.

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Ron Leiferman
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 6:33 pm 
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So this survey closes on June 5th (I did get the survey). I had heard that this question was stirring while at the VIR Runoffs. I pretty much set the question aside until this thread started and then waited to think about it more before completing the survey on line. In reading the 7 questions, I am somewhat frustrated that the questions limit what I think should be valid considerations.

For example, would we consider differently between classes? All the classes are getting faster, but would E Prod benefit more as far as reliability and safety than lower horsepower H cars. There are likely fewer new car classifications going into H than potential new E cars, and newer cars typically come with bigger brakes. Also, should this be a question separate for level 1 and Level 2. I would be more strongly against changing things for the limited prep cars than full prep. There are several reasons people like the limited prep formula that a change would disrupt. Finally, would a weight penalty be a standing alternate weight like some gearboxes or would it be a transition penalty to allow people to budget their parts and testing/development expense over a couple years then become the norm.

Like many have said I like the current formula. With a low horsepower momentum car the last thing I would like to see is a car in class with more torque and better gear options also get better brakes. I do think the fastest classes have the most to gain and would be fine if they had their own separate conclusion.

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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:36 am 
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Location: Phila PA
This brake question is kind of complicated.

Most Production class cars might be OK with current brakes, some have trouble with getting replacement parts or with finding a good selection of pads. A few might actually need better brakes. So should a solution be a change for all cars?

Often the solution is pick a different car, that is a poor solution since one of the great things about our class is having a bunch of different cars. All cars in our class should be a good option.

Maybe each problem car could have some sort of SPEC option?

I don't think we want a general solution that makes us one step closer to GT class.

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TED H; H PROD FIESTA (first race car) H Prod HONDA CRX (current race car)
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:39 am 
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give me full carbon ceramic 8 piston 20" rotors front and rear. Can run inboard to clear my little 15" wheels.


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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 6:40 am 
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anviltester wrote:
give me full carbon ceramic 8 piston 20" rotors front and rear. Can run inboard to clear my little 15" wheels.

Don't get a flat!

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