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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:44 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:59 am
Posts: 1325
Location: Spring Hill, FL.
We went around on this before but the search turns up nothing.
My Very nice Toyota has a cage stamp 03 279. Atlanta region. No records exist . The current Atlanta tech guy was not helpful .
The car has at least 2 tech stickers. The top one reads , teched by the "screw crew", '97 and maybe a tech number of 721.
The issue is that the cage is a "Safety Devices" bolt together cage that has a "USA Spec" tag still on it .
The tube junctures are two 3/8 gr 5 bolts in shear. Granted, not my fav but after close inspection and supplemental weldments ,It is solid. and I consider it plenty safe .

Signed up to race Sebring with my Son and tech would not issue a lost book due to the method of the connections.

Safety deivices still make the same cage , FIA may issue a tag for it. I have emails to both .
If I could find the person that raced it , maybe I can get the original Logbook .

So, where is the Screw crew region? Edit , looks like SOWest.

Edit Is there a method for looking at race results for this era? 1997 , 1996 .
Thanks for all leads.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:01 am
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Location: Belmont, CA
Protech Racing wrote:
tech would not issue a lost book due to the method of the connections.


I would ask tech for suggestions on what needs to be done, in order for them to be comfortable issuing you a lost log book for the cage.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:53 am 
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Location: Spring Hill, FL.
It's a Euro cage with a bolt together junction that doesn not fit our GCR. It's FIA Homologated for SCCA .
Tech wants to cut the cage corners out ,but it's really nice. I may add tube gusset around the junctions .

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:57 am
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Without direct information on the original logbook (such as a logbook issuance date kept by the original issuing region) they cannot issue you a continuance logbook, you have to be re-logged as new. Alternatively, they could choose to follow the "lost logbook" procedure, which issues a one-race full-annual inspection to current regs to allow you to compete, and not re-issue a new logbook number. The expectation is that you'll find the old logbook and/or get with the original issuing region to get a replacement.

But, what about teh cage is non-compliant to current GCR? Bolt-in cages are still allowed. Welding is only "recommended" (9.4.G.4, p92 Jan 2020 GCR). There are certain considerations for design if bolted.

I don't know the details of your cage, but I'd have considered tossing paper if their only concern was it was bolt-together.

I'm also wondering why Atlanta Region would not have kept records of the original issuance? New England Region keeps logs of all numbers (though a lot of our records are missing and incomplete.)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:59 am
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Location: Spring Hill, FL.
http://www.safetydevices.com/motorsport ... /495/1900/

This cage plus Hoop horizontal , Driver side Nascar door bars, X door bar PS side. Dash bar, BA floor plates . The diagonal is in the rear stay plane. Through dash bars into the lower nose , frame rails.
The non compliance is the rod /cap style connection . Instead of 1 bolt through the tube it has two 3/8 bolts that clamp the tubes together. Stout but non compliant . The FIA tag is supposed to be accepted by SCCA .

Like I said , it has 2 or more tech stickers and has raced prior .
Atlanta lost the records.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:49 pm 
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Protech Racing wrote:
The non compliance is the rod /cap style connection . Instead of 1 bolt through the tube it has two 3/8 bolts that clamp the tubes together. Stout but non compliant.

I don't know what that means. The link you provided does not have clear photos; is one bar butted against another, and there's outside "clamps" clamping that bar in place? If so, I agree it does not comply with the GCR (old or new versions).

If the car was logbooked prior to 2008 then the cage would still have to comply to the 2007 regs (Appendix I) or Production regs prior to 2004 (Appendix J). I don't see any different methods of allowable tube attachments, but I haven't stuided those regs in a long time. I'd suggest it may not have compliant even "back then"...?

Quote:
The FIA tag is supposed to be accepted by SCCA.

SCCA does not blindly accept FIA certification/homologation. To get a logbook for a car with an FIA cage that does not meet GCR specs, you would need to go through SCCA Technical in Topeka to review the design and obtain an approval letter allowing it to be logbooked. At that point, a local inspector can accept that approval letter and issue the car a logbook (and the letter and FIA cert remain with the logbook).

Quote:
Like I said , it has 2 or more tech stickers and has raced prior

Doesn't matter. "But the last guy signed it off!" is irrelevant. The last guy might have been wrong, which is why we do full inspection every year, and I still catch things that have "been inspected and approved at the Runoffs!"...

Here's your strategy, as see it:
- Work on Atlanta Region to find records of that logbook and see if they'll issue a replacement; or
- Find that old logbook from a prior owner; or
- Verify the cage does not meet current GCR requirements; if so, modify the cage shortcomings to meet current GCR 9.3.39 requirements (e.g., weld the tubes together); or
- Pull and replace the cage with a current design.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:55 am
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Location: Orrtanna, Pa.
When I initially logbooked my Turner I had to have the cage inspected by a licensed engineer because there was no rear frame behind the rear bulkhead to put rear braces to. It was accepted as an alternate design with the engineers sign off.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:25 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:54 am
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I don't know about Atlanta Region, but when I was speaking w/ Randy Smart locally (Houston region), in his tech briefcase was a crumpled and dirty list of all cars logbooked in the region since Adam & Eve got their first race car tech'd in Houston. I certainly consider myself fortunate to have the history here and thank all of the tech officials in the region for their thorough bookkeeping.
Maybe Atlanta region will have the same luck and be able to assist with reissuance of the logbook.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:08 am
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Location: Atlanta, Ga
The first 300 or so logbook records from Atlanta Region were lost when a chief of tech passed away and no one thought to retrieve them. By the time some one realized they were missing, all his "stuff" had been tossed by the family. Like many families, they thought his interest and time spent at SCCA was a waste. Toni has logbook 03-008 which was issued the first day they did logbooks. Paul Spruell had #03-007.
I was involved in the final discussion about the cage and a solution was suggested that a current FIA certification of that particular cage be obtained. With that in hand, a new logbook could be issued. There is concern about the load bearing of the upper structure. If FIA certifies the cage, all is well. I didn't look at the cage myself so I can't/won't comment on it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:34 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:57 am
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FP Racer wrote:
The first 300 or so logbook records from Atlanta Region were lost when a chief of tech passed away and no one thought to retrieve them. By the time some one realized they were missing, all his "stuff" had been tossed by the family. Like many families, they thought his interest and time spent at SCCA was a waste.

Ugh, that's unfortunate.

We have a similar situation up here in NER. Up until about three years ago, everything was kept on a paper notepad, left in the toolbox in the trailer. As I was reviewing that notepad some years ago I noticed that we only had about 10 years of notes (and they were terse; basically the number, class, maybe the car make.model and a name). I couldn't find any older records. And NER has been issuing logbooks since, what, the mid-fifties? We're issuing logbook numbers around 2500 now.

We got a lucky break a few years ago in that our region appointed someone to begin collecting and reviewing the region's archives. We never found the old tech notepads but we did find annual inspection records from the 80s/90s. We had a Chief of Tech at the time that was extremely detailed in keeping records of all annual inspections done during the years, with some vehicle, class, and owner details, all printed out on tractor-feed paper (with the perforated tractor-feed rows removed, of course.) We scanned those logs into PDF and a team of guys used those scans to recover a lot of the missing data (thanks, Diane!).

All of this data was added to a spreadsheet on Google Docs. We no longer use paper docs. Any time we need to issue a new logbook we'll login (computer or phone) and write in our logbook number reservation there.

But our records are still not complete; there's a lot of missing data. I maintain something I call "The 022 Project" (022 being NER's region number) and occasionally broadcast a request to racers via social media and our newsletter to check their cars for logbooks starting with "022". If they find one, I ask them to contact me with a photo of the logbook and the current status of the car along with any prior history of teh car they're aware of. The scrutineers are also watching for 022 logbooks during annuals and races. I use that info to update our records accordingly.

There's a lot of lost cars out there. But maybe we can recover much of the history.

Also, there's a SCCA Logbook Database that SCCA created in early 2019. I don't know what its status is today but they contacted me asking if we'd participate by making NER's records available. I confirmed and sent them a link to the Google Docs spreadsheet but our data was never pulled in. However, I can search my name and I see my cars that were logbooked in the 80's by Houston Region...requires a login so it's not public info.

We'll get there, eventually.

Greg


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