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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:06 am
Posts: 65
Steve Eckerich wrote:
You run with NASA and have general liability insurance for the facility. Run with SCCA and you are covered under the clubs medical insurance for injury, etc. That is the reason you have to either be a member, or pay weekend membership fee. SCCA has some of the best insurance in sports.


Taken from the NASA web site: While participating at events, all NASA members are covered by an extensive insurance policy, which includes General Liability, Accidental Death and Dismemberment, and Excess Medical coverage.

So how does coverage vary between the two groups?


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:28 pm 
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Todd Benne wrote:
So let's play devil's advocate. If the SCCA removed the medical insurance, would you all quit racing with them? Is insurance the mitigating factor as to how you chose to run with SCCA?


For me, yes, this does play a factor in my decision to race with the SCCA versus other sanctioning bodies. I have taken great care to understand my coverage at work (as long as it is a legal event, I am covered), but also know that insurance companies are extremely defensive of their funds and will actively work to find a loophole. Having to fight with insurance is not on my list of "things to do before I die" and from those I know that have used the SCCA insurance, it has been top notch with few hoops to get through.

While I have done HPDEs, I am also not afraid to walk away from an event if I deem it to be unsafe - whether from other drivers or from the way the event is being operated. The small amount of cost for the event is not worth getting hurt and having to fight insurance.

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Todd Benne wrote:
Now see, that's the reasoning I knew I would receive. It's the insurance. That seems to be the retort every time cost for SCCA are brought up.

So let's play devil's advocate. If the SCCA removed the medical insurance, would you all quit racing with them? Is insurance the mitigating factor as to how you chose to run with SCCA? Lesser insurance seems to work for NASA. They utilize the same venues, at times have larger entries, have similar style of cars etc. So what makes the SCCA insurance underwriter smarter than say NASA's? Do you think NASA said screw those drivers, let's get cheap insurance? Of course not.

The issue with the SCCA is the legacy of entrenchment in the same thought process year after year and over burden of so much bureaucracy that they cannot make a business model change and provide growth and survival. Plain and simple. It's always the same motto...that's the way we have always done it.


So you asked a baited question you already knew the answer to. Please carry on by yourself.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:41 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:20 am
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Location: Corry, Pa.
Do heavy damage to a wall at Watkins Glen with SCCA or NASA and see who's going to pay for it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:51 pm
Posts: 671
It would be interesting to see an organizational chart showing every employee in the Topeka office, and the first line of the job description citing their responsibilities. More enlightening would be knowing their salaries and cost of benefits. Probably not forthcoming, eh?

What are the SCCA's "Products"? How are they marketed? Who researches, identifies, and develops new "products"?

Who is responsible for maintaining and growing the membership?

A more top heavy organization would be hard to find.

There was a time when you couldn't pick up a Hot Rod magazine without 2-3 postcards fluttering out, soliciting NHRA membership. When I was an officer of an NHRA charter club (Franklin Park, IL "Matadors") the NHRA membership was over 200,000. How / where does SCCA advertise? I've never seen anything, anywhere.

I quit paying dues when I realized I wasn't getting my monies worth.

YMMV

RJS


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:06 am
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That has always been one of the things that has left me amazed, the amount of personnel the SCCA has both in Topeka and at the regional level. Boards that report to boards that report to...
And as soon as you have an idea, the mantra, hey you should volunteer to do that is the reply back. Really? Why? What the heck are all the people already in positions doing then? :think:

A little story: In 2003 I was offered the opportunity to help develop a racing series for GT1/Trans Am type cars. A small group of Grand Am AGT class drivers were looking for a place to race their now suddenly obsolete cars as Grand Am did away with the class. My name came up due to my various doings within Trans Am. So in 2003 we created the series and prepared a schedule of events for the inaugural season in 2004. We had two classes; AGT for GT1 cars and IGT for GT2-3 cars.

We held events in the U.S., Canada, Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic. We were SCCA Pro sanctioned. We secured the Canadian May Day event at Mosport taking it from SCCA Trans Am. We shared the Fourth of July weekend festivities with ALMS at Lime Rock. Shipped transporters and such back and forth to PR and DR. VIR, Pocono, Kershaw. Various other events as well.

We had series sponsors, paid purse, contingencies, live timing and scoring, a web site, press coverage etc etc.

Did it all with a staff of FOUR people. My self -Director of Operations, the series President, Ken Grammer of SCCA Pro as Chief Steward, his wife Stacy as Chief of Flagging. I hired a couple of guys from Irv Hoerr's HRP company to fly in on weekends and do tech. Utilized on site event corner workers.

Now granted this was a single series. But the point is, bloated staff does not equal a successful business.


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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:54 am
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Todd, are you willing to move to Topeka?

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Houston Region
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:12 pm 
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I think this comparing membership fees to insurance coverage is misleading. On top of the $75 person, scca gets to join [ $2,187,0000 in 2016, the club charges the region's money to put on races, Rick management services made $1,060,000 million [ this is for the club insurance] and sanction fee $1,020,000 million more. And $816,000 in licenses fees, and all this came from you. In 2016 the total insurance bill was 1,209,000 million, about what was spent on the sports car magazine and the PR department, no, the problem isn't the insurance. The problem with the high membership cost is the $3,258,000 million in salaries and employee benefits spent in 2016 and will no doubt will be higher after all the new people Mike Cobb hires. I think that is just too much expense for what I want them to be doing at the National office.

I don't think that accounting malfeasants is a problem in most of the statement but I don't believe a word of it when it comes to PRO racing and Enterprise. A few years ago when Steve Harris was the local director he told me that the guy running pro at that time with the knowledge of some directors cooked the books to show a small profit by charging internal Pro racing costs to the national office. I only ask him about it after the figures he told me about in Jan didn't match the statement when it came out later in the year. He was a little embarrassed about it but he did own up to it, to his credit. I will venture to speculate this isn't the first time this happened, just one of the few times they got caught.

As for Enterprise, once again I have been told by at least 2 directors [ Harris and Hylton] that the club really has no idea how much it actually owes SCCA. It has lost so much money through the years since it was created in the 1980s the BOD didn't know what to do about it so they conveniently lost track of all it was costing the club. In other words, they put their collective hands over their eyes and ears and said don't tell us about it anymore.

The futility of all this is the BOD and the management of SCCA doesn't give a damn about what we think, I know for sure that applies to me.
I am reasonably sure that reading this, if they even do, gives them a laugh because they know they are there on the votes of the solo people
and except for the money we bring to the club we don't matter at all.

rick haynes


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:22 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:31 pm
Posts: 646
Rick, I don't think they don't care. I think that its just easier to kick the ball down field. Out of sight, out of mind. Which just means they are to lazy to fix the problem. Again back to the apathetic nature of a volunteer. Without some monetary motivation its hard to get people to do the right thing.


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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:15 am 
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Location: Oregon City, Or.
rick haynes wrote:
I think this comparing membership fees to insurance coverage is misleading. On top of the $75 person, scca gets to join [ $2,187,0000 in 2016, the club charges the region's money to put on races, Rick management services made $1,060,000 million [ this is for the club insurance] and sanction fee $1,020,000 million more. And $816,000 in licenses fees, and all this came from you. In 2016 the total insurance bill was 1,209,000 million, about what was spent on the sports car magazine and the PR department, no, the problem isn't the insurance. The problem with the high membership cost is the $3,258,000 million in salaries and employee benefits spent in 2016 and will no doubt will be higher after all the new people Mike Cobb hires. I think that is just too much expense for what I want them to be doing at the National office.

I don't think that accounting malfeasants is a problem in most of the statement but I don't believe a word of it when it comes to PRO racing and Enterprise. A few years ago when Steve Harris was the local director he told me that the guy running pro at that time with the knowledge of some directors cooked the books to show a small profit by charging internal Pro racing costs to the national office. I only ask him about it after the figures he told me about in Jan didn't match the statement when it came out later in the year. He was a little embarrassed about it but he did own up to it, to his credit. I will venture to speculate this isn't the first time this happened, just one of the few times they got caught.

As for Enterprise, once again I have been told by at least 2 directors [ Harris and Hylton] that the club really has no idea how much it actually owes SCCA. It has lost so much money through the years since it was created in the 1980s the BOD didn't know what to do about it so they conveniently lost track of all it was costing the club. In other words, they put their collective hands over their eyes and ears and said don't tell us about it anymore.

The futility of all this is the BOD and the management of SCCA doesn't give a damn about what we think, I know for sure that applies to me.
I am reasonably sure that reading this, if they even do, gives them a laugh because they know they are there on the votes of the solo people
and except for the money we bring to the club we don't matter at all.

rick haynes
I agree with all the points you are making, but the fix begins at home. As a new BOD member of racing region I am amazed at the expenses that we just accept as the cost of doing business. The reason for that is "because that's the way we have always done it" We need people like you and other racers that have skin in the game to become part of the solution. SRF customers are typically arrive and drive out here and entry fees are of little importance to them because its all part of the total expense of a hobby they can afford. We need more of the Grass roots folks to be involved. I have watched for 10 years now and for every 50 bucks you raise the fees we lose more of the grass roots people. when the region has a shortfall because of low entries they raise the fees and we lose another group.

I believe the federal law on 501 corps allows anyone to do a full audit of the books but corp. can control where and when that audit is done.
Good luck with all of this I believe that we are way deep in overpaid salaries on a few positions that sadly under perform.

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