When I see old entry lists and sets of photos from the professional road racing series of the 60s and 70s, there are a number of "locals" who usually entered only at the race closest to them. I am assuming that many were just club racers who "stepped up" to pro just for that part of the series. What were the requirements, licensing wise, for a club racer to enter a pro event?
back in the day question
- Thread starter Greg Nagy
- Start date
Hi Greg:
I can't speak to the licensing issues, though I suspect it varied by sanctioning body, some may have accepted an SCCA National license + fee.
I recently wondered the same as you probably do, ie "where are the local backmarkers"? The reason for their absence seems to be the current requirements of the pro sanctioning bodies for a very high professional standard of everything from crew uniforms and pit gear to tow rigs. A friend of mine estimated $35k min for equipment (not including car) just to be allowed to show up and enter a mid range pro series. $35k is not much in pro racing but is a substantial barrier to a local just wanting to run for jollies.
For better or for worse, gone are the days when the back half (or third or whatever) of the field at a pro race was dragged in on a trailer behind a station wagon or pickup..... I remember going to Sebring in the 70's and seeing just that.
On the plus side you do now have such things as the new BSpec class where you can indeed run at a pro event with minimal overhead.
Al Seim
I can't speak to the licensing issues, though I suspect it varied by sanctioning body, some may have accepted an SCCA National license + fee.
I recently wondered the same as you probably do, ie "where are the local backmarkers"? The reason for their absence seems to be the current requirements of the pro sanctioning bodies for a very high professional standard of everything from crew uniforms and pit gear to tow rigs. A friend of mine estimated $35k min for equipment (not including car) just to be allowed to show up and enter a mid range pro series. $35k is not much in pro racing but is a substantial barrier to a local just wanting to run for jollies.
For better or for worse, gone are the days when the back half (or third or whatever) of the field at a pro race was dragged in on a trailer behind a station wagon or pickup..... I remember going to Sebring in the 70's and seeing just that.
On the plus side you do now have such things as the new BSpec class where you can indeed run at a pro event with minimal overhead.
Al Seim
It may have seemed to be an odd question to ask, since prod cars do not have anywhere professional to run our cars in, but I do have a method to my madness. I am working on an idea I have been thinking about for a while.
btw, if you want to find out the current requirements for entering a SCCA Pro racing event, do not go to sccapro.com and try to browse there. No link visible from the main site. You MIGHT find the rulebook by browsing through one of the seperate pro series websites, but you might also find conflicting information depending on the series. When it comes to the Secret car club, these guys are PROFESSIONALS.
btw, if you want to find out the current requirements for entering a SCCA Pro racing event, do not go to sccapro.com and try to browse there. No link visible from the main site. You MIGHT find the rulebook by browsing through one of the seperate pro series websites, but you might also find conflicting information depending on the series. When it comes to the Secret car club, these guys are PROFESSIONALS.
So if the reason is the changes in rules separation. GT1 and TA are about the closest in rules. STx and World Challenge are close but not the same. Rules are so different between club racing and pro that I don't think you can move up but you could move down from Pro and fit into a club class somewhere. Most Pro classes are built around production cars 5 years and younger.
I think the people that want to go Pro racing for a weekend find it easier to rent a ride. A number of the front running pro teams have rental cars and rental seats that make up most of the "back half" of the grid.
Licensing at a Pro level is really not that difficult if you have some racing experience or attend a Pro school like Skip Barber or Bondurant. They take your money just like everyone else.
What defines a Pro race? Is ChumpCar and 24h Lemons pro racing?
I think the people that want to go Pro racing for a weekend find it easier to rent a ride. A number of the front running pro teams have rental cars and rental seats that make up most of the "back half" of the grid.
Licensing at a Pro level is really not that difficult if you have some racing experience or attend a Pro school like Skip Barber or Bondurant. They take your money just like everyone else.
What defines a Pro race? Is ChumpCar and 24h Lemons pro racing?
joecam96
Well-known member
Back in the day, there was a group of German guys here in Toronto that raced a variety of 911s and 914s. I helped one of them one summer when I was about 18. They ran mostly local club races and series' here and in Quebec, even parking lot slaloms.
But we went to Mid-Ohio for a 3 hour IMSA race. They ran Trans Am at the Glen and made annual trips to Florida in January for Sebring and Daytona. Open trailers and GM vans. They were really just club racers but I don't think that the barrier to enter pro races was to high, technically or financially.
My engine builder raced IMSA RS in a variety of cars that he built himself from high-mileage donor cars. Those cars would look more like IT cars today. I don't think that anyone's building a WC car from a 5 year old Golf in their garage today.
But we went to Mid-Ohio for a 3 hour IMSA race. They ran Trans Am at the Glen and made annual trips to Florida in January for Sebring and Daytona. Open trailers and GM vans. They were really just club racers but I don't think that the barrier to enter pro races was to high, technically or financially.
My engine builder raced IMSA RS in a variety of cars that he built himself from high-mileage donor cars. Those cars would look more like IT cars today. I don't think that anyone's building a WC car from a 5 year old Golf in their garage today.
JessePrather
Well-known member
RonInSD":bonfwyx2 said:
Ron, you should know better. It's far from it.
Jesse Prather":1hh2crdr said:
LOL Yes, I know better but how does one define what Pro racing really is? You can win money? Gets media coverage? Classes? Top Level Competition? Rules? Or is it just big budgets? So ChumpCar and 24h Lemons may not meet the last couple.
I think some people may think Pro racing is where you can win money. You can win money in SCCA club racing. But to me Pro racing is more about the drivers.
Lets get down to what defines professional, the Oxford dictionary defines professional as: "a person engaged in a specified activity, especially a sport, as a main paid occupation rather than as a pastime"
So that tells me that in Professional Racing it is when the drivers are paid by some one else or the expense of the race is paid by some one else. I always say club racing is where you are racing on your own dime and pro racing is where you are racing on some one else dime.
In ChumpCar and 24h Lemons their may be some paid drivers but for the most part they are not paid. In "Pro" racing not every driver is paid. Some are the "gentleman" racer who race out of their own deep pockets but a majority are paid drivers or the cost of the race is paid by sponsors.
Now getting back to the original question as why you don't see more people stepping up to the Pro races on the weekends. I believe it is that the Pro association is trying to sell their product to sponsors so they want to have a different product then everyone else. They want their own set of rules with current model cars so the association can sell it to sponsors and so teams and drivers can get sponsors. B-Spec is an interesting concept that I think may cross the lines and get cars from different groups moving around but associations are mixing up the B=Spec rules a little to match their needs.
James Rogerson
Well-known member
Field fillers "back in the day" were locals with "national" licenses that paid the entry fee. Different races had different requirements due to the level of expected and/or real participation.
Today you fill out your racing resume and forward it to the sanctioning body with a check. They look it over and see if your check bounces. The latter isn't always the most important. It is less expensive to rent a ride. The general maintenance on a 997 Platinum car is about 5k an hour. Those cars would be less expensive if they weren't spec. Renting also keeps you from having to buy all the uniforms. :roll:
James R.
Today you fill out your racing resume and forward it to the sanctioning body with a check. They look it over and see if your check bounces. The latter isn't always the most important. It is less expensive to rent a ride. The general maintenance on a 997 Platinum car is about 5k an hour. Those cars would be less expensive if they weren't spec. Renting also keeps you from having to buy all the uniforms. :roll:
James R.
James Rogerson
Well-known member
Oh, and it's my experience that SCCA racers can't finish a 24hr Lemons event without getting punnished into abject submission for bad driving.
Just saying,
James.
Just saying,
James.
Matt Blehm
Moderator
James Rogerson":2qzb7sfr said:
Three reasons for that:
1. the good drivers get frustrated with the bad drivers and pull bonehead moves trying to get around them.
2. Lemons provides "harsh" penalties for something as simple as running a bit wide on corner exit. go 4 wheels off on exit even though you didn't lose any speed, safe re-entry, nobody was around, no harm done? nope. you get to spend 30 minutes in the pits (while sitting on a toilet, inside a doghouse, or saran-wrapped to your car) explaining why the huge slick spot on the track that wasn't there a lap before (with no surface flag, mind you) caused you to nearly spin mid-turn and it took eveyrthing you had to keep the car going the right direction.
3. 24hours on a track and you think I'm not going to spin ONCE trying to push the limits?
James Rogerson
Well-known member
Matt93SE":2ig193ak said:
Number 1 is the applicable one. 2 doesn't work unless 10 others do the same. 3 is just lame.
Z3_GoCar
Active member
RonInSD":3frjgtsj said:
Dave Gran published an excellent series of articles on this topic last year:
http://www.goaheadtakethewheel.com/blog ... ro-racing/
I think the ratio of "Gentlemen" drivers to pro is more like 2 or 3 to 1. In that sense, I think the term "Professional" takes on the conotation of egaged in meeting the recreational needs of the "Gentlemen/racers" who happen to be named "Jon". The number one rule of racing, which isn't in the GCR, is the golden rule - he with the gold to race, rules. In that sense the only thing seperating club racing from professional racing is the size of the check you have to write.
Back a few years ago I was approached by a small Grand Am team who were looking for drivers for their GT Porsche 996 at a VIR race. I later talked to Brett Strom about this, and he told me it was common for these teams to wreck out early leaving the money paid to race in the teams pocket, with no seat time.